Tommy Hearn of Elemant Concrete Design - UHPC Maker Mix

In this weeks episode of The Concrete Podcast, Brandon Gore and Jon Schuler talk about GFRC, ECC, and UHPC, and then discuss business with Tommy Hearn, owner of Elemant Concrete Design. You can contact Tommy Hearn:

(615) 485-2798





Intro: Welcome to the Concrete Podcast, where we talk all things concrete; featuring your host, Brandon Gore. 

Brandon: So, what do you want to talk about; for our first conversation?

Jon: That's a good question. I don't know. How about just concrete in general?

Brandon: *Laughs*

Brandon: I'm Brandon. I'm the host of the Concrete Podcast. And I'm here with my co-host, Jon Schuler, and Jon Schuler is now a partner of Kodiak Pro. And part of that partnership is Jon handles tech support, and he's also helping refine our mix, and other products further. And so, a big part of that is Maker Mix. It’s kind of the cornerstone of the Kodiak Pro line. And so, Jon, you want to talk about Maker Mix?

Jon: Sure. Maker Mix, it's exciting. I've been involved in this industry for 20 some odd years. And I think it's just exciting to see the mix come along with, how did you describe it? A Swiss army knife? Right. Swiss army knife of mixes, yeah, it's pretty amazing. So, you know, seeing so many misunderstandings about what concrete is and what versions of concrete can be used. I mean we've all seen them; the acronyms that run around, GFRC, ECC, which fibers… So, Maker mix, Wow! Incredibly dense, multifunctional - you can spray it, cast it. Whatever workability that you're looking for can be created without having a shop full of various admixtures that are supposedly dedicated for only creating certain mixes and functionalities. So, no, Makers Mix, it's exciting. 

Brandon: So, Makers Mix, I mean you brought up different acronyms GFRC, ECC. Maker Mix would be considered a UHPC. Do you want to talk about what UHPC stands for?

Jon: Yes, certainly. UHPC, ultra-high-performance concrete. That's the kind of the acronym they throw out there for the kind of concretes that run, it's like 18,000 plus considered UHPC, high density, most of your UHPCs, high fiber function, use of metal fibers, PVA fibers. But the big advantage of ultra-high-performance concrete is high durability. I guess that's ultimately where they're seeing the UHPC mixes, as high durability mixes, compared to the things that are used in footings and driveways and such. 

Brandon: Yeah. And why would that be beneficial for guys doing, you know, decorative artisan concrete; sinks, countertops, tile, things like that? 

Jon: Well, from my point of view, I mean that's a good question. From my point of view, which this has been my point of view, as long as I've been involved in this artisan thing is, the higher the density of the mix, the higher the resistance of the mix to, you know, let's say the normal things that have problems with concrete that we know of. Shrinkage, let's just talk about that for a minute. An ultra-high-performance concrete is designed, it's really around its ability just for one thing, not to shrink. Shrinkage leads to a lot of problems in our industry. From if you’re making a countertop, you certainly don't want it to curl. And if you are making a countertop a certain size, you don't want to shrink to that size. The project I just finished was a cast in place project, but up against cabinets, and so forth and you certainly don't want it shrinking and leaving a gap there between, let's say the refrigerator cabinet and the countertop itself. So, the ultra-high performance, it fits a function for our industry. I'd say again, as you said, a Swiss army knife, is lack of shrinkage, high density, less dependency on sealing technologies, specifically coating technologies, and long-term durability.

Brandon: Would increased flexural be beneficial as well for thin shell furniture or tile?

Jon: Oh absolutely, yeah, no question at all. If I ever have to, like the old days, carry around something, you know, two inches, three inches thick, unless I designed it that way for a certain look, no, I mean yeah, you want the kind of strength, where you can create the maximum out of the minimum; and that's where your UHPC’s comes in.

Brandon:  Yeah. Cool. All right, well, we'll continue the conversation about UHPC and the benefits of it on the next podcast. In this podcast we're going to talk with Tommy Hearn and discuss his business and trials and tribulations. And so, let's get Tommy on the phone. Alright so, my guest today is Tommy Hearn, and we got Tommy on the line. “Tommy, how are you doing, buddy?”

Tommy: Man, I'm doing great. Best day ever, right?

Brandon: That's what I hear.

Tommy: Every day, every day.

Brandon: So, tell us about you, Tommy, where are you located, and what do you do specifically?

Tommy: Tennessee City is where I reside. My shop is in Dickson, which is probably 45 minutes west of Nashville. 

Brandon: Gotcha. And Dusty used to be in Dickson back in the day.

Tommy: That's correct, yeah. I'm off the same exit that he used to live on; so, sort of in the same area. He moved further away, and I don't blame him.

Brandon: How did you get into concrete? What led you to that?

Tommy: Well, initially I was working for myself doing tile, and just it wasn't really filling the tank anymore. And I was looking online, and I saw a picture of a table that visually it was really impressive. And as someone who likes to make things, I was really interested. And I was like, I want to figure out how to do this. And so, I started looking online for concrete classes and came across one. And a friend of mine mentioned to me that he had seen something, the week before on Tennessee Crossroads talking about a guy that lived in Burns, which was, you know 20 minutes away from where I was, and he did it. And I was like, “What's his name?” And he said Dusty. I was like, “Dusty Baker?” And he was like, “Yeah.” Man, I know that guy. So, I went to Dusty’s had called him and I was like, “Hey, can I come by and talk to you?” And he's like, “Yeah for sure man.” So, I went by, and was kind of picking his brain about this class. And it so happened to be one that he had been to before. And he, was like, “Listen, he said, I'm not necessarily telling you you should go to my class. But he said, “Save your money and time, because then I wouldn't go to that one.” And I didn't realize that he was part of your school, and he explained to me that there was a class coming up and I was all in. And so, I went to the Concrete Design School class and, just fell in love with it. And went back to doing tile. And maybe a few months later, Dusty, had his accident where he fell off the ladder, and I happen to have a conversation with one of the guys that worked with him at the time, and he told me about what happened. And so, I called Dusty, and I was like what are you going to do? And he's like, I've got to hire somebody, like, immediately and I was like, I'll be there tomorrow. And so, I went and the next day was working there and, it worked out perfectly.

Brandon:  Good for you, trial by fire. That's awesome.

Tommy: Yeah, look, I knew that it was something that I wanted to do. I knew that I loved every part of it, you know what I mean? From the design part of it to building the form, to finishing up the concrete to installing it. Every part of it I looked forward to and I was like, I've got to find a way where I'm doing this every day. You know and so that opportunity presented itself and I can help a friend, and learn, and I was like, it's, it's the perfect scenario, and so I jumped on it, for sure, and was happy to do it. 

Brandon: Okay, I hear your dog in the background.

Tommy: Yes. Well, this is not Marley, this is a friend of mine that I had to go to to connect to the Wi Fi.

Brandon: Yeah. Marley he's an awesome dog. He's a big pit bull, super sweet.

Tommy: Oh he's the best. He would redefine what a pit bull is to most people. They see him and they're instantly scared, and then taken back by how friendly he is.

Brandon: Yeah, super sweet. How long you, been in the business, Tommy?

Tommy: As far as like on my own, I had my first shop in August of 2019, and was still busy doing tile so I really didn't get an opportunity to spend any time in there. And then, lucky for me, COVID happened, and locked down went down, and my tile business it bottomed out because nobody was wanting people in their house. And so, I was like, Well, I'm not gonna sit on the couch. So, I was like, I'm gonna go to my shop every day and just, you know, just do what I love to do and try to come up with different ways to do it and just be creative because I didn't have big jobs to do. I was just playing around and trying to get good at finishing out concrete. And it's not necessarily the size of the piece, it's just learning how to take it from powder to a finished product, regardless of the size the step is the same, you know. And so, I tried to focus on that but also really be creative in the things that I was making.

Brandon: So, when you got started, you were using Buddy Rhodes products correct?

Tommy: I was using the admix.

Brandon:  Gotcha.

Tommy: It was what I learned on, so it was really the only thing that I knew that was available that was either that or they had a basically an add water and fiber mix. And I had messed with that a couple of times, and it set up on me way too fast and I was scared of it. Because it almost set up in Dusty’s mixer, one time and I was too scared to go down that road again. So, I went back to what I knew, which was the ad mix. I didn't realize how much hustle there was involved in trying to track down to Portland, and then get the sand. Because they're never located in the same place, and they're never close to where I am either. And it became harder and harder to find the white Portland. And if you can't find the white Portland, you're really limited in what you can do color wise.

Brandon: True.

Tommy: Go ahead.

Brandon: COVID has wreaked havoc with that even for us on the manufacturing side. Just getting a decent supply of sands and Portland, is really difficult. And on the local distributor level, like where you are, trying to find somebody to keep white marble sand in stock, it's probably pretty hard to do.

Tommy: Absolutely, yeah, that's, that's not even one that's really available. It's a fine white sand that is finer than your playground sand but it's not like a white marble sand which I would love to be able to have access to at the time. But I don't need it anymore because I've switched over to something that I feel like is way better in so many different ways. You know what I mean?

Brandon: Well, I want to talk about that -

Tommy: Go for it. 

Brandon: You were using Buddy Rhodes products, but at some point, you made the switch to Makers Mix from Kodiak Pro.

Tommy: Right.

Brandon: Why did you make the switch? What caused you to move from one product to another?

Tommy: Well to answer that question, my first real experience with it was after the class that you had this past year. I think it was what maybe in February. 

Brandon: Yep.

Tommy: That was really the first time I'd ever seen it in action…

Brandon: The Makers Mix?

Tommy: …and get to put my hands in it and on it and see how easily it mixes comparatively speaking to the other. Because before I bought a mixer, and Imer, I was mixing with a double mixer, like a double paddle. And it would beat you up, because it would clog up so quickly. And a lot of times, either you would end up over plasticizing or adding too much water to make it workable when you were using it like that. Because in that scenario those paddles create more friction, and so it sets up that chemical reaction after where the concrete wants to set up quicker on you. And I've mixed several batches with the Makers Mix with the double paddles and I don't have that issue. I love it. It's good.

Brandon:  So, you made the switch for workability issues.

Tommy: That’s one reason for sure. 

Brandon: What are the benefits that you have found?

Tommy: The other benefits I found is I really like the ease of when it comes to putting things together. You don't have to batch things out. It's such a time saver. It really is. And it just makes things so much more user-friendly in the beginning process of getting everything batched out and ready to go. It just saves a lot of time. Then less option for errors far as putting in too much or too little of the ad mix, too much or too little sand or not being able to match the sand. And if you've only got X amount, and you have to switch over to something else, and you have to do that in the middle of a mix, I mean, that could be extremely noticeable. And so just having the consistency of outcome, guaranteed is one of the main reasons that I switched. Because I know every time, I can count on exactly what's going to happen every time I do it. And it hasn't failed me yet.

Brandon: Well one thing I've noticed, and I mean, maybe I'm on the wrong page here but I've seen a lot of your stuff on Instagram, by the way. And the work you've been, well at least taking pictures of, man you’re doing some really nice stuff.

Tommy: Thank you

Brandon:  Some good things coming out of your shop. So, yeah, this this time has worked well for you. It looks like the quality, you know I mean, I hate to use that word, but your pieces look a lot cleaner, or maybe more refined. Is that, in your opinion solely due to your skill or the materials you're using as well?

Tommy: What I've noticed is that I like the options based on the charts that you supply to how to achieve the different mixes. For me that's a that's a game changer because it really allows me to control the outcome, depending on what it is that I need to be the outcome, you know what I mean. Whether I needed to be like super clean, like corners and edges and everything needs to fill in perfectly so I can do that as an ECC mix or add a little bit more to make it a little more fluid to where it fills in perfectly. Or, I had done the clay mix here recently, the last few, and it worked out perfect for the situations that I needed to, and, you know, it's just it's nice to be able to have the control. You know what I mean because that's, that's so important, because I look for projects that are never the same. You know what I mean, I look for things that are going to constantly push me to be better, and to think outside the box and your product allows me to do that confidently. 

Brandon: So, now that you've had a couple years of really kind of refining your skill set. What's the next thing that you want to become better at in relation to concrete?

Tommy: Hmm. Well, I tell you this, the side of concrete that I was initiated in, was the ECC side, meaning there was some attention to detail that was put into the forms, but it's also hand finished out and that process is a really important part of it. Where I'm really interested in the technique that you do. Where it's more of SEC and so much attention goes into the form building, and so that when you pour it in, it's perfect. I'm intrigued by that because I just don't have enough experience in it. It's something that I want to work on for sure. And it's things like that where I encourage the designers to be creative with what it is they're wanting to do and how they can use concrete.

Brandon: For sure.

Tommy: Think outside the countertop. You know what I mean? That's what I encourage them to do.

Brandon:  Yeah. It's all time. Whether the time is on the end game, hand carving and doing all the cool stuff that Dusty’s look is with the color.

Tommy: Yeah, and all that stuff man. It all intrigues me I want to learn it all. You know what I mean? I want to learn every skill. I'd love to. You know what I mean. I want to get into spray GFRC too. I think just having that that tool, so that if I need it, I can pull it. I'm not saying I want to make a living doing it, but I'd like to be able to know how to do it.

Brandon: No, no, no, no, no. It's like those monks that wear the clothes that are itchy all the time so they're never comfortable. That's what spraying concrete is. 

Tommy: Okay.

Brandon: It’s not a tool that you want. It’s scratchy underwear. You don't want that. 

Tommy: You're right about that. 

Brandon: I taught the first class on GFRC where we sprayed it. And I spent years and years doing it and I can tell you, it's a world of pain. It's a world of pain. And all you're going to do is go down that and you're thinking, Man, this is got so many benefits to it, but then every third piece comes out in such a way they have to recast it.

Tommy: Right.

Brandon:  Start looking at your life, like, I can't be profitable. If I'm recasting 30% of my pieces. And then if I make this piece, a month later from this piece will never match up, I can put them side by side, they won't look the same. It's just so much downsides to spraying. A lot of guys still do it. A lot of guys think that's the only way to do GFRC but I'm telling you, the downsides outweigh the upsides with spraying concrete, in my opinion. 

Jon: Yeah, I would say so, Tommy. I would agree with you I think you came a different route, which, you know, is a lot better. I mean, I don’t want to put anybody down, but I think a lot of your guys that are still doing the spray you know these steps, you know the mixing in a five-gallon bucket, hopper, spray, boom backer. There was a time, I can't remember how long ago, we all thought, my goodness that is so cutting edge right.

Brandon:  Seventeen years ago.

Jon: And now you know looking at that, when I see guys going through those steps, there's a side of me that just goes, oh wow, you just, you have yet to step into the 20th century. What happened? How did you get stuck there? Now there might be some situations where, you know, some big, massive pieces I guess, you know, those kind of steps may fit versus making, you know, a two part mould or whatever the case may be. But honestly, I can't think of many situations, if any, where going through that kind of old technology surpasses or is anywhere near what can be achieved today, where, where things are at. Yeah.

Brandon: I feel like Walter Sobachek in The Big Lebowski, just, you know, yelling, “YOU’RE ENTERING A WORLD OF PAIN!” Right, yeah. Yeah.

Tommy: You guys are part of the, the trio that I consider along with Dusty that are my mentors.  I mean you guys are the ones that I felt like the minute that I started the class and ever since I've attended every other one, I've never been to another concrete class so I can't speak of it. But what I can speak of is my experience with the Concrete Design School, and it's like the minute you start the course it's lots of media man. And to the point where at the end of it you're meeting all kinds of different people from all over the world. And they all share this passion for concrete, and how it allows them to express their creativity, unlike any other medium that I'm aware of. And, you know, Dusty always is telling people that you can make time, you're welcome to come here. You can shadow me. You can learn. Stay as long as you can afford to stay. I mean, I doubt there any other concrete schools out there that have instructors that go out of their way to connect with each and every student like you guys do, you know what I mean? It's a community unlike anything I've ever been a part of.

Jon: I mean, comparatively speaking, I'm gonna agree with you. Those are part of Concrete Design School you're dealing with guys, and this has been their passion. They have the experience they've been doing it for years. And I'm not gonna knock on any of the other offerings out there but the one thing you can definitely say, comparatively speaking is anybody who's associated with the design school has, if not thousands, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of hours of hands-on practical experience. And that's what's coming to the table, not somebody see there may be standing behind their degree or you know, hey I just started a shop yesterday and so now I'm going to start telling you how to do it. It's an entirely different animal. These are guys with a passion for it and experience and the years and years and years of experience behind it. It makes a difference, in my opinion.

Tommy: For sure. It's a huge resource for someone that's just getting into that career field because what the school does with one the class that you go through but then to the connections that you make afterwards, it allows you to speed up the learning curve and bypass the speed bumps that otherwise if you're trying to figure it out on your own, that you're going to run into. You have guys that sit and wait for people to ask questions on those message boards and are happy to share and help out in any way they can with any type of form building questions, material questions, sealing questions, anything. Both of you two are always accessible on Instagram or Facebook for any kind of questions like that. It's a huge resource and what it allows people to do is they can start following these people and especially with the ones that are making the transition from a career field that has nothing to do with building things. Now, it gives them an opportunity to follow people who do it for a living. And I'm a big believer in if you can see it, you can be. And so, it just, it shows them. If you continue to take steps towards this goal, you can make it happen. You just don't give up and you just keep pushing forward and you redefine to everyone who you are and what you do.

Brandon:  Excellent. Yeah, really well put. Way better put than I might put it. So, you know what I was gonna say is, you know, Jon's talking about the experience that, that we have; Dusty and Jon and myself. And really what that experience is when we teach a class, we're teaching how to do things from the perspective of, we've done it the wrong way for so long, in so many different iterations of that, that we've learned, don't do this. But we went through thousands of hours and the way not to do it to arrive at the way to do it. And so, when we teach a class, there's a lot of a lot of failure behind it, in the sense of, we know this doesn't work. And so, when you're talking about spraying concrete just kind of bring it back to that is, I know a lot of guys see it and I think it's exciting, but as somebody that did it for, you know, close to a decade, running business that way, you know, I don't make any money. I don't have stock and spray equipment, or anything like that. And I don't have a company that sells equipment that competes with spray equipment, so I don't have a dog in the race, beyond the point of, I've been down that road. And it's no way to run a business. You might be able to do fun things and do things for your own projects that are interesting. But if you're trying to be profitable it's, it's a really difficult way to do it.

Tommy: From what I hear from you the failure rates pretty high. And so, again, yeah. Another thing that I like about the Makers Mix is that the failure rate is at this point, I haven't had one. It's extremely reliable. You know what I mean that does what I needed to do every time I mix it up.

Brandon: That goes back to doing things wrong way and learning what not to do. And so, Kodiak Pro came about from a place of necessity. Unfortunately, the products that were on the market that I was using that you were using that Dusty was using and everybody was using, and it's been different companies over the years, but all those products, always had an Achilles heel of some sort, that created problems. And those problems add up. Those problems cost you money. Those problems, hurt your reputation in the industry, with your clients, for different reasons. So, Kodiak Pro came from a place of failure of all these things that were giving us trouble, trying to create something that had less problems. Now, nothing's 100% perfect but Jon and I are striving to make this as close to perfect as we can; from usability workability, durability, sealing technology, colour fastness, flexural strength, all these things. We're trying to like, you know, sharpen the razor as sharp as we can get it and get it as good as we can get it. Because we know what it's like to work with products that don't perform the way you need them to.

Jon: And along that same line we are not backed by people that don't use the products at all. Regardless of what we're talking about, there are so many products out there that are essentially built and put together in a formula by somebody maybe behind a desk or in a lab and then that gets passed off to, I don't know, maybe some salesman of some sort who create a tech sheet. And so, the best information that you may get from them is coming from some salesman, who's never made anything never had to stand behind it.

Brandon: Never, never put a piece in the cracked that stained and you have to explain why. And you have to fix it and you have to understand what went wrong. They've never had that experience.

Jon: Yeah, and that goes for the rest of them as we just talked about training. I mean you can see some of these products that I see have being offered by people and this is, you know, maybe they hear this podcast and think it's a downer. But I see products that are being supported if you will, by people, individuals and companies that have never been in our shoes. And what I mean is that when I took this to a client who gave me a pay check, which was going towards my mortgage, I had responsibility for that product. I have to stand behind it. There's an obligation there. There's a responsibility there. And so, one of my difficulties is seeing companies out there that are selling products to this industry, who's never had to put themselves in that spot. They basically hand that responsibility off to the person they sold the product to. And if it worked or didn't work, you probably didn't use it right. The great thing here is, if something didn't fall into place like it should have, again, you got tens of thousands of hours of experience to bring that to fruition. Because, hey, been there. Saw that. Yep. Hey Tommy, do this. This is what you need to do. Hey, not sit back and, you know find every reason to point a finger of what you did wrong and then basically, I don't know. What's the tech sheet say? What is that? Can you read me line 14 again? 

Tommy: And you sit on hold for 30 minutes waiting to talk to somebody who maybe knows what they're talking about.

Brandon: In the big companies, they don't know unfortunately because the people they have doing tech support, or just tech support people that sit, essentially behind phones all day. That's the other benefit of what me and Jon partnering up with Kodiak bring to the table is, Jon mainly handles tech support. But when somebody calls, and they have questions, Jon, is the go-to resource for the industry for these types of things. And so, he's, he's worked with these products more than anybody else. He developed so many the products over the years that have been adopted by the industry. And so, when someone has a problem, they're talking to somebody that actually knows what they're talking about and they're not just flipping through a binder and saying, Oh, you have a crack. Did you do this? It's like, yeah. No, bro. I mean it's, you know, ten more levels down of problem solving to find out what the root of the problem is. But you have to know what you're doing. But I think what Jon hit on that is super important, is when we make a product for a client, we're responsible, regardless of the product we use. It's on us; our reputation. That money, as he said goes to your mortgage. It goes to feed my kids. It goes into savings for their college someday. And if it's a product that peels off, that falls apart, those kind of things, that hurts the reputation of the company and hurts my business. And so, you know, there's a certain amount of obligation we feel, to make the best product possible so guys can feel confident when they make a piece for a client that they're giving them the best thing that they can give them.

Jon: Agreed. And stand behind it and know the reasons why.

Tommy: Yeah, and I completely trust you guys based on just my personal experience with you, and, and then understanding Jon's background in chemistry and realizing that he understands the products in in a far deeper way than most people ever will. And that's, like, just as far as the elemental compounds of the product itself and how all of that stuff works together. Not to mention he uses it on a daily basis, you know what I mean so it's easy. After I've met you and been around you and see how you run your business and how you operate with people, and how you interact with all of the students that are new, and those that have been there and done that and come back for more, It was the way that I tried to build my business. It's the way that I kind of modeled it. I didn't have anything else to build it off of other than what I was exposed to. Between you guys and Dusty, that was how I tried to model how I interact with people and trying to create something that I'm proud to have in someone else's house. I put everything that I've got into it you guys were a great mentoring group that just allowed me to kind of tap into that, you know what I mean it's, it's a great experience for sure. 

Brandon: Appreciate that. It's funny you saying that. The only class I ever took, but how I got into this industry was I took Buddy Rhodes, very first class, it was me and one other attendee. It was a very first class he ever did and I bought Buddy Rhodes first powdered mix. I customer number one in the system. And it was a shit show but that's a whole other story for a different day.

Tommy: Hey, concrete has come a long way man. It has come a long way. You guys are leading it with the way that your mix is made. I think it outperforms everything out there, you know, and that's by design.

Brandon: Well, so, what happened with Buddy is, I went to his shop and the shop was like 11,000 square feet. It was in downtown San Francisco like on the ocean; beautiful shop huge. I think he had like 35 employees. Had a full-scale mixing plant in his shop. It was like ants working and he probably had 50 to 70 tables set up in the shop. His polishing area was an actual loading bay, like a loading well that trucks back in. They put grating across it, and they had tables set up in there just water polish and all the water going down; huge setup. And I went from that back to a 1200 square foot shop in Tempe, Arizona, and there was no scalability. Because all I've been exposed to was 11,000 square feet 35 employees, huge mixing plant. And I never seen any other working shop that wasn't that size. And so, the first four or five years of my existence in the industry was just trying to figure out how do I make this work in a small space. But that's a benefit of coming to our classes. Whether it's my shop or Dusty’s shop or Jon’s shop when we do a class is you see things at a more appropriate scale for what most of us do. Most of us don't have 11,000 square feet and 35 employees. So, it's much more relatable in that example is more valuable and relevant as part of that training experience.

Jon: Yeah, absolutely.  I first started in a single bay of a three-car garage. That’s how I started.

Tommy: Yes, you do what you got to do to get the wheels turning; whatever it takes to create momentum.

Jon: Agreed, agreed, yeah, yeah, that was great. 

Brandon:  Well, Tommy. Yeah. I was gonna say it's been really great talking to you.

Tommy: Appreciate it. I've really enjoyed it-

Brandon:  And we'll follow up here soon. I'm sure in the next few months, we'll do a follow up interview and kind of see how things going with Maker Mix; what you like, what you don't like, what we can improve on and keep the conversation going.

Tommy: Yeah, that sounds great and then I'll plan on seeing you, what's next class, November, right?

Brandon:  November 1-6 Eureka Springs, The Pinnacle Concrete Camp. So, I will see you there?

Tommy: I'll do everything I can to make that happen. I love going to those classes and hanging with you guys, it's such a great time. 

Jon:  Again, I love seeing your stuff that you’ve been posting to Instagram and stuff. It was today you just put up something for some tables you either created or you're going to create or something like that.

Tommy: That was a post that I did a couple days ago. Yeah, it was some, for some tables that I had made, I just recently finished up. Yeah, that was a fun one. That was a fun project. They're all fun and I look for the ones that are outside the box. I encourage it out of my designers. 

Jon: Excellent. 

Brandon: All right buddy, we will talk soon.

Tommy:  Perfect. Thank you. Talk to you guys later.

Brandon:  Have a great day.