Pour With Purpose: Skills, Mindset, and the Confidence to Build Bold
"Dry polishing techniques can elevate the finish of concrete countertops to professional levels." - Jon Schuler
Ever feel like you're meant to build something bigger—but don't know where to start? In this episode, we lay the foundation. From the tactile rhythm of polishing concrete to the mindset shifts that separate the hesitant from the bold, we guide you through the essentials every maker needs to grow their craft and their confidence.
We’ll walk you through dry diamond polishing pads—what they are, how they work, and how to use them to get that flawless finish. Then we open up about mindset: the kind that keeps you grounded through chaos, and the kind that lets you take the leap when fear’s whisperin’. You'll hear real stories of makers who bet on themselves—and what happened next. And finally, we break down how to choose the right AR glass fiber for your next project, so your work doesn’t just stand the test of time—it thrives.
If you’re ready to build with your hands and lead with your heart, this one’s for you.
🔑 Takeaways:
- How to polish concrete counters like a pro—dry
- Why positivity isn’t just a mindset, it’s a skill
- What it really means to bet on yourself
-
How to choose the right AR glass fiber for strength and style
🧠 You’ll leave with:
Confidence. Clarity. And a few new tricks in your back pocket.
#concretecountertops #CreativeEntrepreneurship #MakersMindset #DryPolishing #CraftsmanshipMatters #BetOnYourself #concretedesign #PersonalGrowthJourney #ConcreteWorkshop #ConcreteArtisans
TRANSCRIPT
Hello, Jon Schuler.
Hello, Brandon Gore.
Well, we're back after a couple of weeks.
We're gonna start doing this bi-weekly, right?
That's the plan?
Yeah, I think so.
It leaves a little more room for things to build up.
So yeah.
And more room to forget things.
There's that.
What'd you say, to forget things?
Yeah, because we had like a list of stuff last week, or two weeks ago, we didn't cover, and I was asking like, what was that list?
What were we?
I can't remember.
What were we talking about?
Yeah, I'm sure it was super important.
Yeah.
So anyways, we're back, and we're going to start doing this every two weeks or so.
Couple things, Jon, out of the gates, the Basics Workshop is exactly a month out.
It's going to be June 7th and 8th here in Goddard, Kansas.
The Basics Fundamentals Workshop at Concrete Design School.
This is a workshop for people interested in getting into concrete or you're fairly new to concrete, and you have questions about how to do things properly, how to form, mix, cast, cure, seal.
This is the building blocks, the stepping stones, the starting point.
So if you're new to concrete or interested in getting into concrete, go to concretedesignschool.com and sign up for this workshop.
It's our most cost-effective workshop, and it's a really comprehensive beginner class.
So check that out.
Number two is the Kodiak Pro Demo Day.
We have that June 21st here in Goddard, Kansas, and we have a bunch of people signed up for that.
So that's a free event.
It's not a training class, but it's a demonstration on how to use the materials and how to use the sealer.
So if you're interested in that, go to kodiakpro.com and then click on training and events, and you can register.
And like I said, there's no cost.
Any thoughts on any of that stuff, Jon?
Well, number one, yeah, I mean, just on the idea of the beginnings.
I think we've talked about this before, but you know, there's a lot of, I'm going to say versions of training out there, good, bad or otherwise.
The difficulty continues to be in this industry and maybe in all industries is a lot of the training is done by people who don't do it and haven't done it.
And that will always be a difficulty, in my opinion.
So, you know, it's nice to spend a couple of days.
As you said, I mean, this is not a push.
This isn't a training push based on materials.
It's a base on technique and a mentality.
And where are you trying to go?
Because that's the other thing.
Those people who don't and haven't done it, haven't run businesses, they truly don't understand, in my opinion, and I think it's more than opinion, they don't understand how a group of individuals, this group of artisans who focuses on quality, bettering themselves, questioning the materials they're using, the quality of those materials that they're using, the health of those materials they're using.
And I mean, I could get the list continuous and on.
So those people thinking about it or on the fence about it, you make your decisions on where you want to get training.
But the nice thing about this foundations is it's being done with someone who's been in the industry a very long time, and focused on, let's say, arguably been at the top of the industry for a very long time.
So I think that's great.
Comments related to the demo day.
Dude, I think it's just awesome, man.
There continues to be so many questions tech related that I answer, and we're going to talk about a few things today, just general kind of things.
So it would be great, you know, people who want to show up and just see it, touch it, feel it.
I think that's always a good thing.
Yeah, I was on Facebook a couple of days ago, and some Chinese company is, and all the Concrete groups are now posting a vacuum casting machine.
Have you seen this?
No, vacuum casting machine.
Well, it was an idea that's, I mean, this idea has been around for a long time.
Hiram Ball told me in the 90s and 2000s in Saudi Arabia, I want to say even the government funded it.
They spent many millions of dollars trying to make equipment that would pull a vacuum on the concrete before it went into a form to get the air out, right?
No, we did that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But the problem is, I mean, yeah, everybody tries.
But the problem is, it just didn't work.
They put all this time, money, energy into it, and nothing ever came of it.
And, you know, I think it's the wrong approach.
So anyways, but my point is, this Chinese company is posting about it, and, you know, they're saying, oh, you get flawless castings using the most basic of materials, and then they posted photos.
And if you just click on the photos and look, there's air holes all over everything.
Not little tiny ones, big ones, right?
Big air holes.
And I wrote a response back to them and just said, you know, I think a better approach would be to use the right materials to begin with.
Instead of trying to use cheap materials and then get some machine that's fraught with points of failure, that's fraught with having to try to clean it every damn time you use it, just use the right material to begin with.
The other example I gave them was how really wealthy people will spend a million dollars on their house and are building their house to save a hundred dollars a month on energy cost, because they like to tell people, oh, we have the most sustainable house, blah, blah, blah.
And they put all this energy and time and money.
I'm not against having energy efficient houses.
I'm against the point of diminishing returns.
At some point, it just becomes an exercise in bragging rights, where you just want to tell everybody.
So I follow builders on Instagram that build these insanely expensive, over-detailed building envelopes and installation for super wealthy clients.
But if you do the math, you save 100 bucks a month, it's going to take 833 years, 833 to recoup that investment if nothing breaks in that time period, if you don't replace anything, if it just goes perfectly planned for almost a thousand years, you'll break even, right?
And it's the same thing with this machine.
You get this machine from this Chinese company, which is a problem in search of a solution.
You get this machine.
I don't know what it costs, because they don't post the price, but $10,000, $20,000, $30,000, I don't know.
Let's say it's $10,000.
You get this machine for $10,000.
Great.
Now you get down to Home Depot and Lowe's, and you start playing that game, which we talk about, where what's your time worth?
You get a bag of cement, you get a bag of sand, you go and get gravel if you're going to use a larger aggregate, whatever, because they say you can use the cheapest materials possible.
Great!
Oh my god, it solves my problems!
And then you go get the cheapest materials, you mix that crap up, you put it in this Rube Goldberg contraption, and hopefully you pull a vacuum on it and get some of the air out, and then you pour it into a form, which again will trap air in the action of casting, you'll trap air, the mechanics of it rolling into the form as air is getting trapped and it can't get out.
And then you finish casting, and you spend the next two to three hours trying to get all the concrete out of Irving Nook and Cranny of this complex machine before you can use it again, right?
Was that a good use of your time investment?
How long will it take to recoup that cost?
Will you ever recoup the cost?
No, no, just use the right mix to begin with.
And you don't have any of that expense.
You don't have any of that time.
Right mix, right technique.
Exactly.
I love your comment.
It's a problem in search of a solution or a solution in search of a problem.
It's ridiculous.
No, that's ridiculous.
That's silly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And don't get me wrong, right?
We all bought the little vacuum.
I don't remember what it was called, but they use it for rubber, mold foams, and so forth and so on.
You put it in the thing, you turn on the, and all of a sudden, yeah, that's what's going to solve all.
Yeah, look at, look, it's bubbling.
And till you just like it never stops bubbling.
No, because you're actually too far.
You're creating, oh, come on, man.
The whole thing was, it was an exercise in futility that like, no, no, no, no, no.
And I can't even come up with an analogy.
I mean, what would be another analogy?
Do you spend all this money on, you know, whatever, something in your vehicle so that you can use the cheapest, most garbage fuel, and you're like, OK, so what did you save yourself?
Nothing.
You still got the same headache.
Yeah.
Well, and it's also the scale thing.
So guys, still to this day, I see every now and then somebody will post something about they try to use their vacuum chamber they have for rubber, which is like a five gallon vacuum chamber.
Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Yeah, they'll put a bucket in there, but you can do a quart at a time.
And it takes, you know, three minutes, five minutes under vacuum to get a full vacuum.
That's going to take you five hours to cast that 500 pound project doing it like that, right?
You're never going to do it.
And then once you get done vacuuming, then you got to pour it in a form.
Well, it's like when you pour it in a form, you trapped air again.
All the air you got out, you just put it back in.
And because you have a mix that isn't self degassing, it's not self compacting, it's not self consolidating, you're right back to square one.
All that work was for nothing.
And now you're back to having a crappy product and you're going to have to slurry it and water polish it and slurry it and water polish it because you didn't solve the problem.
So, anyways.
No, you continue to fight it.
Yeah.
That'll go on from now till doomsday though, man.
It is what it is.
And I don't mean that in a good way.
I mean, it continues that.
I was, I can't remember, just the other day, it was something to do with Gabe.
And we were talking about it and he was talking about someone didn't want to use a certain product because it was a difference overall of like, I don't know, 20 bucks in the project or something like that.
And at the end of the day, that 20 bucks that being concerned about ended up costing, because he got a little sick.
He went in and casted it with his quote unquote cheaper materials and then spent the time and energy with pinholes and voids and et cetera.
And then at the end of the day, trying to convince himself like, well, that's because that's the kind of concrete I wanted to see.
No, it isn't, man.
Well, it's confirmation bias.
Come on, can't we all just agree?
Don't lie to yourself.
Confirmation bias.
Just stop it.
Confirmation bias.
You're going to do everything you can to justify the mistake you made and never just say, oh man, I shouldn't have done it.
Dude, I mean, how many times do I make a mold where I know the right thing to do is to use epoxy or to use the catalyzed conversion varnish.
But like I said, this couple of classes back, I'm like, eh, I just got to spray polyurethane.
I knew it wasn't the right thing.
I knew I'm cutting corners, and it bit me in the butt, right?
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people do that.
You try to cut a corner, you try to save a buck, you try to save time, whatever it is, whatever the reason is, and why you do it.
But at some point, you gotta look in the mirror and be honest that I shouldn't have done it that way.
This was the wrong way to do it.
And you know, when I have a class, and they're like, is it always this hard to take the mold off?
No, no, it's not always this hard.
Oh, does it always stick like this?
No, no, it doesn't always stick like this.
Do you always gotta take an hour?
Yeah, you know, so I was like Sam Kinnesson.
Jon, Jon, is it always this hard to make?
Oh my God.
Yeah, people don't know what we're talking about.
But one of the first, I mean, I had known Jon, but I hadn't really spent a lot of time around Jon.
We just, we'd met at World of Concrete, and we hung out at the airport and talked for a while.
But there was this event in Covington at Blue Concrete.
And this was the very, very early days of them making a concrete mix.
And Jon had developed ECC.
And ECC was, he developed it for the aesthetic he got.
He could do these really cool looks with this material.
And so I was out in Covington, and Jon was doing a demonstration.
He was mixing it, hand mixing it.
And when I beat myself up.
Well, when I do Ram Crete, it's almost the equivalent.
Ram Crete is such a thick mix, right?
When I mix it and I hand mix it.
And it's such a thick mix.
And it's just a workout, dude.
You're sweating, you're like, ah, I'm gonna kill this mixer, you know?
So anyways, I walk over to Jon.
Jon just got like sweat just running down his face.
And I'm just standing there.
And, you know, I'm like, I'm calm and cool.
And I'm not I'm not stressed out.
But Jon is obviously he's got like, you know, 50 people staring at him.
I'm like, Jon, is it always this hard to mix?
Yeah, leave me alone.
Yeah, Jon was stressed out.
But yeah, yeah.
Anyways, yeah, yeah, yeah.
One of those situations literally just got done blending it.
Nobody tested it.
No nothing.
Ah, let's throw it right out there in front of everybody.
And so, you know, anyway, yeah.
So one of those moments, man, one of those moments.
Nice to meet you, Brandon Gore.
Let's get this podcast going, Jon.
Let's do it.
Well, before we do it, I do want to say, because I've never really told the first time I met you, but the first time I met Jon was at World of Concrete in Las Vegas, and we ended up at the airport at the same time.
And I had like an American Express Platinum card or something that got me first class lounge, you know, thing.
So I'm like, hey, and you can have a guess.
I'm like, hey, we had like two hours to kill before our flights.
I'm like, you want to hang out for a little bit?
You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So we go in there and we sit down.
And in ICT, I wasn't using ICT yet.
This was probably 2006 or 2008, somewhere in there.
And I said, Jon, can you explain to me how ICT works?
Don't ever ask Jon how ICT works, right?
And I went into like this time warp where Jon just is like, I would love to.
And just like numbers and equations and concepts, and Jon's hands are going, he's like Billy Mays, you know, Oxyclean.
I'm just like, whoa, like way too much information, way too much for two hours.
I didn't say a word.
I just sat there and Jon just like overwhelmed me with information.
And he's like, all right, I got to go.
My flight, my flight is taking off.
All right, bro.
Nice to meet you.
I have no idea.
All I remember, the only thing I remember is you telling me it's like cement particles like an onion and you want the onion to open up and you want to charge the particles.
So it sucks in hydration.
I'm just like, OK, whatever, dude, this guy's a nut.
And yeah, that's my first experience with Jon.
Good times, buddy.
Good times.
Anyways, all right, so on this podcast, I have a list.
We're a little bit more organized today.
I have a list of topics we're going to cover.
The first one was where we left off two weeks ago, and that was dry diamond polishing pads.
These are the polishing pads that we have manufactured specifically for our use.
And we have manufactured specifically for different models of the most popular sanders that guys are using have dust extraction.
So, Metabo, Festool, Dynabrade, Mirka.
What else?
What other one do we have?
There's one other.
I'm forgetting.
Festool.
I already hit Festool.
Festool, Mirka, Dynabrade.
Metabo.
Metabo.
Okay.
So anyways, we had a customer.
He's pretty new to Concrete.
He bought the diamond pads.
He's never used the diamond pads, and he wrote us an email, essentially saying he was highly disappointed with the product.
It didn't work.
He wanted his money back.
It only lasted for a few minutes or 10 square feet or something.
And you called him, and it turned out he was using them incorrectly.
Well, hang on.
You got to get further than that.
I thought the email was...
I was laughing at the email.
You were not laughing at the email.
And like...
Because he threw this shot across the bow.
I met you guys once at Epic, and so I just thought that you would have good products.
I guess I was wrong.
Yeah.
I should always let Jon take care of these things, because my instinct is I'm going to refund his money and I'm going to tell him to take his business someplace else.
Yeah, don't ever call me again.
And Jon's like, I'll take care of it, dude.
Let me take care of it.
I told my wife about it.
She's like, yeah, always let Jon handle these emails or calls, because Jon's much better.
I'm just like, done.
I don't have time for...
I don't want to have a discussion, but we should have a discussion.
I mean, that's my own shortcomings as a human, and my own failings as a human, is I have a tendency that if something is just like, for whatever reason, just difficult or whatever, I'm just like, eh, I don't know.
Well, this wasn't difficult, man.
I want to take it further.
I mean, I don't know if he meant to do it this way.
If somebody throws an insult.
An insult?
Yeah, an insult.
And maybe it was an insult, but it felt like an insult.
If somebody throws an insult, my instinct is just to be like, adios, amigo.
Like, I don't have time for that.
So, but anyways, so go ahead.
You called him and what happened?
Yeah, I just thought it was funny.
When I say it was funny, it took me not through the second line, him explaining why they didn't work.
And I'm like, oh, I know what he did wrong.
Yeah, not a big deal, right?
So the funny part was when I called him up and he's like, oh, thank you.
Totally again, once again, totally different on the person on the end of the line than whoever typed the email.
And I just started laughing.
He's like, oh, it's funny.
And I'm like, oh, I was just calling about your Yelp review.
You know, I was, I was getting ready to do the, you know, the worst hot dog ever had.
Yeah.
Come by, come by the most disappointing pads for diamond polishing for dry diamond polishing pads.
Yeah.
Anyway, the two of us started laughing.
And I said, did I know what exactly you did wrong?
He's like, what?
I go, you put on your Festool and you're trying to get the project done.
And so you're running on my on high speed.
He's like, well, yeah, of course.
Like noted.
And so anyway, I just want to get down for anybody, not just these pads, but in general, tells you my history.
I, I, so anybody doesn't know this in the blankety blank weeks, maybe days that I've been doing concrete countertops.
You get a few phrases you use all the time.
Blankety blank is one of them.
In the blankety blank.
And the, yeah, in the, in all these years, but really, right, hours, I want to be like the other ones.
I got no experience on making it up.
I've always done dry polishing, always from day one.
And whether that was using the original 301s, the seven inch Metabo, whatever the case may be, I've always had the vacuums and, you know, all this stuff I've always done dry.
And the first thing I learned, regardless of what pads is, you need to run them on modest to low speeds.
And so in that case, you got to make sure you're picking up a tool that can breathe properly, or at a low speed, you're going to burn it up.
But you got to run them at low speeds, or they end up as they refer to as they glaze over.
So the diamonds themselves, the resins, basically they just end up coating the diamonds and they don't cut.
Yeah.
It just kind of melts the resin and slips it over.
Yeah.
What's that?
It melts the resin and like slicks over the pad and it's not going to do anything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I know exactly what he was talking about.
So then once I told him and we started laughing and told him how to fix them, like, look, go find yourself either some raw concrete or maybe a block of some sort.
And you got to use some water.
In this case, you're going to need some water and scuff them back up and you got to pull the hard glazing because it is now at this point it's melted in.
And so you got to pull that hard glazing back off and they'll be right back.
But so on in your Festools, your Metabo's, Bosch's, whatever you're using, if you're using the rotary to cut specifically on the lower grits, the 40s, the 60s and so forth.
Yeah, don't they cannot run.
And same thing if you're doing reseals, not just concrete countertop polishing, but reseals were trying to pull whatever sealer was there.
You got to run them on, let's say medium, to just lower than medium speed, so that you keep the diamonds fresh and then they'll cut like nobody's business.
100% Jon, absolutely.
Yeah.
So when it comes to pads, what's a step by step guide?
We haven't really done this.
We need to.
I mean, we've talked about, we need to do a lot of videos on how to use products properly and things like that.
But what's a step by step guide with using diamond pads?
You start with the most aggressive grit.
Do you speed up the process as you go through the grits, or do you keep it all at a medium or slow speed?
No, that's a good.
So no, you don't actually.
Excuse me.
I do not recommend starting with the lowest grit.
What you actually do is you start with a mid grit.
So if they're talking, specifically, we'll talk about our pads, a 40 grit, 60, 100, 200, and 400.
I'll always start with the 100.
Put it on the Festool.
In this case, that's what I have is the Festools.
So I put it on, line up the holes, put it on the rotary setting, and start cutting.
That'll be the first, because you never know.
So here's what I'm gonna say.
If you start too low and it cuts too quickly, when it comes to dry polishing, the amount of, let's say, dust and debris or stock that's being removed has to be picked up by your vacuum.
If the sander and the diamonds are cutting faster than the CFM pull on your vacuum, I don't care what kind of pads you use, you're gonna create more scratches.
In other words, you're gonna create more problems than solutions.
So that's a no-no.
So in my opinion, and in my experience, I start with a mid-pad, and then I see how it's cutting.
How's this thing going?
Okay.
If I'm like, yeah, all right, so the concrete's hard enough, it's not really cutting real fast like some of my finishes, then I'll move down to the 60.
I run the same test, cut a little bit, take a look at it, okay, boom, and then I'll come down to a 40.
That's how I do it, and that's how I recommend to everybody.
Start with your mid-pad and then work down.
Now, if you get down to your 40 and you're cutting nice, I'm gonna say the same thing.
Don't overwhelm your vacuum, so move slower compared to, if you watch people doing wet polishing, see that comparison of dry and wet, wet past wet polishers and pads with the lubrication, everybody's moving pretty quickly, you know, comparatively speaking.
You're not gonna do that with dry.
Dry, you know, you just keep a fairly, I don't know, modest speed.
It's not that the diamonds won't cut, it's that the vacuum's not gonna pull the dust and debris up fast enough.
So be aware of that.
Makes sense.
And so let's say, you know, you start at whatever, you start at 100 and then you end up going down to 40, so now you're down at 40, you have the vacuum set at a lower medium speed, you're moving at a nice, even pace, not getting too crazy with it.
You finish the whole surface with 40, then what?
Well, this is where the rotary and orbital settings, the two specifics, I don't think the Metabo has the dual setting.
So the Bosch and the Fustool have the two different settings.
So I run the rotary for stock removal, and then I always come back with the same pad over the entire project again on the orbital setting.
Specifically for everything I just said, if your vacuum, if you ended up moving faster or you ended up cutting faster than what the vacuum could handle, inevitably you're going to leave some kind of scratches.
It's just nature of the beast.
But now that you've cut, as much as that 40 is going to cut, now you go back to the orbital setting and your orbital setting will take 95, 99% of your scratches away.
And here's the thing with dry.
So I'm going to say opposite, but similar to wet.
We all know.
So let's just again compare dry to wet.
When you wet polish, no matter what grit, no matter what speed, no matter how much water, when you think you're done and there's water all over the surface, you're like, booyah, this thing's brilliant.
And then you dry it, squeegee it down and go, holy shoot, I didn't see that scratch.
You know what I mean?
Damn it.
And then you have to come back.
All right, it's the same with, so in this case, dry sanding, it's kind of the same thing.
You'll run on your rotary setting, and you're like, oh man, you look across this thing, brilliant.
Yeah, this is nothing.
Now, if you don't come back with the orbital setting and do it again, but instead jump to the 60, and again, a rotary setting, next thing you know, that 60 grit, it just shines a light on a scratch that you never saw.
And it skims right over it.
And all of a sudden, the scratch gets brighter, brighter and brighter.
So always run your rotary setting or excuse me, your orbital setting after your rotary setting.
And you use that.
I think of it as just a cleanup.
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
But you don't speed the the speed of the sander up as you go through the grits, as you increase.
No.
OK.
That's something you do with water polishing.
Yeah.
Water polishing, you start at a lower speed, and then as you work your way up, you speed it up.
But you don't do that with dry.
No, no, for the same reason.
So again, a lot of this is dependent on your vacuum, CFM of the vacuum.
And again, I'm attached to my Festool vacuums.
And I think I don't even remember the CFM's, but most of them are all about the same, even the big ones I bought years and years ago that I bought off some floor polishers.
So the idea is the speed of your vacuum, or excuse me, the speed of your tool, A, is about the cutting, and you don't want to glaze it over because there's going to be heat, right?
You're on dry, so there's going to be heat.
And then number two, you don't want to cut so fast that the vacuum can't keep up with it.
So you run the rotary, you think, well, hey, but now when you go to the orbital setting, you're pulling less stock, which in essence is allowing your vacuum to pull more of that dust.
So you're going to cut any of your scratches much quicker and much more efficiently.
Makes sense.
Cool.
Well, that was actually a lot of good information, Jon, because I don't do dry.
Whenever I do polish, I do wet.
That's always been my thing.
And I haven't done any reseals.
I've never done a reseal ever.
I know it's a big part of your business.
I know that a lot of guys do a lot of reseals.
It's just something that's getting bigger and bigger.
It's just something I've never done.
So I personally don't have first-hand experience.
So it's good to hear this, because I personally don't know how to do it.
So that's good.
Yeah, that's the thing when it comes to sealers.
Now, again, reseals.
When we say reseal, we're not just talking, because I think it's funny.
When it comes to ICT, I call them rejuvenations, because there's really not a whole lot to do.
Because you're not moving the top surface.
You're just going to clean it up.
Yeah, so it's not as much as a...
So, like, anymore, to me, it's either a rejuvenation, or I call them a restoration, instead of a reseal, you know what I mean?
So if I go into these ones that I do, and I'm going to say 99.9% of the time, they're all with acrylics or urethanes of some sort.
And so you go in, and that's what you'll learn pretty quick, too.
Anybody who's done this or looking forward to it is, if you're not running your sander, because again, you are doing them dry, if you're not keeping it on a modest speed, I mean, again, midpoint, what'll end up happening is that acrylic or that urethane, it just melts under your pad.
It'll be the same, like, yeah, what's going on?
How come this isn't cutting?
Oh, and then you turn your machine over, and you see all the sticky, garbagey degree on your pad that you have to like finger grab off of it, and, you know, pick, and, oh, man, it's a total pain in the butt.
So when it comes to restorations like that, I have two tips to throw out there.
Number one, again, modest speed, keep your modest speed.
And the same thing, don't get too aggressive with your pad.
A lot of people think the same thing.
Oh man, I'm gonna grab this 40, and I'm just gonna rip this coating right off.
Nah, you wanna go at it a little bit slower, because as we know, especially with topicals, you'll have an area that's pretty worn.
And that topical might already be losing its mechanical bond and da, da, da.
But the areas, I'm gonna say 99% that are still brilliant is in the corners, you know, where the, you know, whatever, where the toaster sat, or whatever the case may be.
And so you go to cut those with a high aggressive 40, all you're gonna do is melt it and create a mess.
So you want to hit those and go a little bit slower.
Same thing with maybe 100 or 200, and slowly rip that coating off.
You go too aggressive and you just create a mess.
Gotcha.
And every time you say at a medium pace, I think of Adam Sandler, that song, at a medium pace.
You know that song?
No, at a medium pace, no.
I'll send it to you.
If you're not a teenage boy, and if you're very politically correct, do not look up this song, because it'll shock you to your core.
But this song came out in 93, and it was the funniest song ever when I was that age.
So at a medium pace, but I'm not going to tell you what the premise of the song is.
I'll check it out.
Awesome.
And I was going to say, tip number two is keep a small pull trigger spray bottle for the same reasons, meaning the heat.
So you get into those areas where the, where the coating or even the heavy acrylic hasn't been used very much.
So you know, the mechanical bonds are still very, very nice.
You're going to want to spray a little bit of water, not crazy, but you know, give a little bit of coolness to those pads so they don't just melt the coating and melt it right into your diamond pad.
Makes sense, Jon.
Makes sense.
So the next two topics are intertwined.
They, they relate to each other.
One is one that you brought up to me this morning is cultivating a positive mindset in business, right?
So that's-
And life, yeah.
And life.
And the other one that I want to talk about is the importance of betting on yourself and embracing risk.
I think this is something that we all struggle with as business owners.
Most people listening to this podcast are a small business owner.
And so I'm just going to tell you a little story, Jon, and then I'll let you tie it back to cultivating a positive mindset.
About the little story of what's going on right now with me, is I have a project going on, a personal project.
It's a real estate project.
And it is incredibly scary.
And it's one of these things that if I think about it too much, it's paralysis by analysis.
If I think about it too much, if I start thinking about all the things I have to do and all the steps, and just it's overwhelming.
And it's just too big and too daunting and too scary.
And I'll end up sitting on my hands and the time will pass me by and nothing will happen.
And I think back to when I built my house in Arkansas and I built my shop.
I bought that property.
Okay, that's step one.
And then I started thinking like, well, I want to build.
And it was step by step by step by step.
Had I seen the entire thing up front and all the work and I mean, all the stuff of putting in gas lines and running this and electrical service and septic and it would have been too much.
I would have never have done it.
I never would have done it.
Yeah.
But because I did it step by step and all I did was focus on the next step.
I kept telling myself, I don't need to worry about that stuff yet.
Whatever it is down the road, insulation, roofing, glass.
I'll worry about it when I get to it, right?
I'm not going to even concern myself with that.
All I'm going to worry about is what's the next thing in my journey.
So I got this project going on and I have a friend that I've known for a long time that I want to involve on the project.
I want to bring him in.
I want to give him ownership on it.
And he's struggling to give me an answer on if he'll do it.
And it really has to do with he's scared to take a risk.
He's scared to take a leap.
He's scared to see what his life could be if he just says yes to something and takes a chance.
And I've seen these videos, maybe it's because I've been kind of talking about it with people I know and the iPhone's always listening to me.
So when I'm online, these videos pop up and it talks about this kind of stuff.
It talks about, it's like these interviews with billionaires and they say, you know, the lesson they've learned is in life, there's these moments of opportunity, they come every now and then.
You know, in your life, there might be three, four, five of these moments.
And either you say yes and you seize the moment, even if it's the hardest thing you had to do, even if it's not the right time, because it's never the right time, even if it's uncomfortable, you say yes and you figure it out.
You jump and then you figure it out.
And so anyways, that's just what's going on right now with me.
That's where I'm at.
And I think that this is something that we all struggle with.
Again, I was having this conversation with a friend of mine, Case.
He's a firefighter.
And Case is a very high level firefighter.
He's gone to like all this advanced training and all this kind of stuff.
And he does, he teaches firefighters now.
He does training.
And he said that this is something that he sees with firefighters.
These young guys come in, they're new or whatever, and they get this moment of fear, whatever it is, whether it's repelling off a building or going into like a burning structure, whatever it is.
And he always tells them, that moment, that moment is going to come.
And when that moment comes, you have to go through the door.
You have to jump.
You have to do whatever that is.
That moment of fear, either you jump or you go through the door and everything is on the other side.
All your fear is gone.
You know, you push through or you don't.
And if you don't, you're stuck and that's the end of your journey.
Right.
And it's the same with business.
It's the same with what we do.
You take the leap of faith.
You work it out.
You say yes to the opportunities when they come to you.
And you run with it.
You don't sit on your hands because the time will pass you by.
And if the time passes by and you didn't see the moment, your life is gone and you have nothing to show for it.
So anyways, that's what I meant.
Well, that moment's gone.
Yeah.
No question at all.
Yeah.
Yeah.
My dad, little story on my dad.
My dad in 19, I want to say he's probably like 76, 77.
He was an engineer at a, he was a civil structural engineer at a pretty big company in Northwest Arkansas.
And Sam Walton was good friends of my grandfather.
And he was also friends of my dad.
My dad knew him.
He went to my parents' wedding.
I actually have a crystal decanter and whiskey glassette that Sam Walton gave my parents for a wedding gift.
But Sam Walton, Walmart was successful, but it was regional.
They had like 15 stores, you know, in Arkansas, Missouri, whatever.
And Sam Walton was going to move all the engineering and development in-house.
He wanted to do it in the home office.
And the home office at that time had like 20 employees, 30 employees.
It still was a pretty small company.
And Sam Walton offered my dad the number two position in the home office.
It was going to be an executive level position for the engineering and development.
And there was a guy that was there that was going to be his boss, but the guy was like 80 years old.
My dad was, you know, in his 20s.
And my dad turned it down because he thought Walmart wasn't going to go anywhere.
He thought Walmart was, you know, just a small company that was only going to have stores in Northwest Arkansas or whatever.
And it wasn't going to go anywhere.
My dad had friends that went to high school with him that got a job during high school at Walmart.
And they worked in sporting goods.
They worked in the warehouse or whatever.
And these guys never went to college.
They never did anything besides work at Walmart.
But just because they were there from the beginning and they got stock options and the stock options split and split and split and split, all those people today are billionaires.
Everyone was a billionaire, all his friends.
They all have private jets.
They all have a house in Aspen and a house in Hawaii.
And because they were there from the beginning, my dad turned that down.
He turned down the executive position in the very beginning because he didn't think Walmart was going anywhere.
He didn't seize the opportunity.
So anyways, I would just say, if you're at a place in your life, whatever the opportunity is and you have an opportunity, say yes, always say yes, and figure it out.
So you want to tie this back to cultivating a positive mindset in life and business?
Well, in a way, yeah.
I mean, I think one of the hardest things in business and in personal life is, this is what I was talking to you about the other day is, and I'm not blaming it on social media in general, but I just, you know, when you go out into the world, your neighborhood, and it's, there's so much negative, man.
There's so much negative, and it's extremely difficult.
It's like, yeah, I think part of this is human nature.
It just is what it is.
And this is what brought it to light.
So I'm just going to tell my little story.
This is what brought it to light to me when I was talking to you about it is, as most people know, when you order ICT or pads or whatever, you know, I'm the one that sends it out.
I got no issues with it.
I, you know, store it in my lab or at the shop.
I put it together, boom.
And I live in a rural area.
Say it again.
So I take it down to the local UPS.
Say it again.
You know, the UPS center.
Say it again.
We don't have a UPS store here.
Say it again.
Say rural again.
Rural.
How are you supposed to say it?
Rural.
Rural.
That's what it is.
Rural.
Like starting a motor.
Rural.
Rural.
Rural.
You have marbles in your mouth?
What's going on over there?
That's how you say it.
What is it?
Rural?
Rural.
I don't know.
I'm going to call your wife, have her check you for a stroke when we get off this, because I think you have a stroke.
And so apparently one day, like one day, I'm talking literally in the last couple of weeks, some Yahoo showed up out there.
So I drive through the gates.
There's zero issues.
Pull right in, drop my packages, put them right on the conveyor belt.
Oh, hey, Jon.
Hey, good to see you.
I have a great day.
Some some guy shows up two weeks or a week ago last Friday.
Apparently unhinged because he didn't get his package or the tracking number or whatever.
And you know, now one thing I'm going to say, I hard to be too bad on the guy because most of you guys know.
And I think I've told most people don't don't order overnight shipping anymore.
Nothing shows up when they say it's going to show.
Come on.
I have a tough.
I mean, it just is where UPS has been for a long time.
You know, second day, third day and ground.
And even though they say, you know, ground ground is anyway, it is what it is.
So that's what happened with this guy.
Apparently, he came completely unhinged and assaulted one of the drivers.
You know, the drivers and stuff aren't there during the day.
So he assaulted one of the girls.
And anyway, they shut the whole thing down, which I understand.
But then when I was talking to the guy, Brian, do I know?
And I'm like, you know, see, there's the difficulty for all of us, man.
And this is something we all need to learn how to fight in our businesses and in our life is this one situation overpowered the 9,999 positive situations.
Like a guy like me going in there who says good morning each time he comes in, you know, brings some cookies with him sometimes, or hey man, what's it?
And sit and chat.
And it's amazing, man.
And that's the hard for any of us.
Positive mindset in business that goes with overcoming the fear in entrepreneurship, you know, all of it.
Life is going to get hectic, man.
And focus on the positive.
Obviously, there's negative around us all day.
On the news, you know, oh my god, right?
The sky's falling with tariffs or whatever, you know, newest something's going on.
And then you can get roped into that negative.
And it brings you down, brings you down your relationships and your businesses, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
So that's just something I want to talk about because I've been seeing quite a bit of it lately.
Even when I'm taking calls from people, it's like, dude, how is that bothering you?
I mean, sorry to come over the real life example, but we happen to be talking about tariffs, right?
Oh, tariffs, rah, rah, rah, and I was like, bro, not to be a jerk, but how is that affecting you today?
Like you're still going to go fill up your truck with fuel.
I mean, focus on it, not in my area, because California seems like our fuel prices keep rising, but yours went down by a dollar.
Is that not a positive?
I mean, you know, you're still going to make your mortgage payment.
You've still got a new project that just came in.
You know, focus on that client.
You know, you and me aren't going to do diddly squat about the tariffs.
Don't let that negative, if it's negative, don't let it beat you down.
Don't.
So what can you do, Jon?
What were some strategies to maintain a positive mindset?
What do you do to maintain a positive mindset?
Well, that's, you know, again, what are some of those strategies?
I think I told most people, you know, and we started that group, you know, I've gone back to working out.
It's the one hour a day, or now we're getting up in the morning to my son and I, it's the time that I can just focus on that.
Me.
Yeah.
I put the music on, you know, we put some whatever rock station on with Pandora or Spotify or whatever the case may be.
And, you know, we're doing pushups or whatever.
And it's just a chance to, you tune everything else out and you focus on you.
Maybe you got a little stronger today.
Maybe you could run a little further or whatever the case may be.
And that's where I like training or training.
I call it C it's really working out, but I'm still calling it training with my son.
And you look over and like, you son of a bitch, you got one more rep.
Okay.
I'm going to do a rep and you know what I mean?
And you turn it into this, this very positive experience.
And it sets the tone for your day.
In my opinion, I know it does for me, but it sets the tone for my day.
It put me, it puts me in a very positive mood.
It's tough to bring me down, you know, on a morning like that, even after doing cardio, I can get this email about, you know, the worst pads he's ever used in his life.
And he was expecting, he was expecting more from you because he met you at Epic and you thought you were a better quality person and...
All jokes aside.
Yeah, so that to me is a strategy.
How about yourself?
You know, for me, meditation, which I'm not as good as I should be, but when I do, it's one of the things like, I know the benefits, kind of like working out.
I need to be going to the gym.
I'm not, I need to, because I know the benefits of it.
And I've been down that road and I do feel a lot better.
But when I meditate consistently, that helps improve my mindset, or at least helps keep me in a positive headspace and not spiral into negativity, whatever.
And the other thing is, I'm a big fan of audiobooks.
And so I love Tony Robbins.
Anytime I'm starting to kind of go down negative town road, and you know, I'll put on Tony Robbins and it changes my mindset.
Or I listen to Dr.
Wayne Dyer, D-Y-E-R.
He has an audiobook called Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Life, Living the Wisdom of the Tao, T-A-O, Tao.
And that's probably my favorite audiobook ever.
I've listened to that thing just in small segments at least 100 times over the last 20 years.
It is just such good information and such good advice.
And it always seems like whatever section, because I'll just hit play and I'll play, you know, 20, 30 minutes of it.
And it just seems like whatever that section is when I hit play seems to resonate with whatever it is I'm starting to get negative about, right?
And it shifts my mindset.
So that's another good one.
There's one more, the audio book that I like, Greenlights by Matthew McConaughey.
He narrates it.
Oh, really?
Yeah, dude.
So that is a great book.
And again, it's just always, if I'm on a long drive, I've listened to it many times now, I'll put on Greenlights and it's just entertaining and positive and it's got a positive message to it.
Very much what we're talking about.
And about taking chances and saying yes and keeping a positive mindset.
It just kind of gets me back in a good headspace.
So those are the three that I, the three audiobooks I listened to.
And then meditation, those are what helped me.
And I need to get in the gym because I know that that really improves my mood as well.
Well, that's the hard thing, man.
I just use my own example.
When I get into these, to anybody who's listening, man, I'm sure you're no different than me.
For whatever reason, you find yourself in this negative rabbit hole, right?
Maybe it's because of finances or whatever.
I don't know.
You've been eating too much sugar or something.
And before you know it, I don't want to go to the shop.
You know what I mean?
Just like, eh, whatever.
And it plays into everything.
I'll go do some tech support, doing emails and Facebook.
Some stuff will come up.
And when I say they're nothing, it's nothing nasty, but you just start to find yourself scrolling for a minute.
And it seems like the videos or the daily, whatever you're looking at, like, oh yeah, yeah.
And there's a negative spin of some tone, and you just find yourself getting sucked into it.
And then you find yourself getting more and more negative.
And it's, I shouldn't say it's hard to break out of, but then I'm like, ah, put on puppies, you know, watch a kitten video or something.
And the next thing you know, boom, you know, I'm right back in it.
I'm, you know, going to, you know, cast some more.
And as I got these samples, I'm, you know, working on this potential enhancement.
Anyway, you know, you just find yourself back in the zone again, just feeling good.
And that's where we all want to be, man.
Getting, you know, Debbie Downer on yourself, it's...
Well, it doesn't change anything.
That's what we call impression.
Well, it doesn't change anything.
My grandpa, there was a time when I first started my company, this was 2004.
And I had gotten some, well, I started my company in 2004, but it was probably around 2005, 2006, because this was when Dwell had been published, the Erosion Sync, and I was getting successful, or at least, you know, my version of success.
And I felt like I was doing good.
And I went to Arkansas and I've shown my grandpa some of the stuff I had made, and he wasn't really impressed, which was pissing me off, right?
Because I'm like so proud of it.
And I'm showing him photos.
And I'm kind of like bragging about how good I'm doing, you know?
And my grandpa said, easy come, easy go.
The good times don't last and the bad times don't last.
Only constants change.
And he said to me, and this was one of our last conversations we had before he passed away.
And again, it pissed me off at the time.
I'm like, this guy's trying to rain on my parade.
He's trying to bring me down, right?
Like, what the hell?
But he was a thousand percent right.
He was giving me really, really great advice that the only constant is change.
And so the thing is, when things are starting to spiral and you get that tax bill in the mail and then whatever, and you're just like, ah, fine, you can go down that road, but nothing's going to change.
It doesn't change the day, the week, the month, the year.
But to just kind of realize like the only constant is change and this isn't going to last forever.
You know, like the economy right now, a lot of us, I'm one of them, things have slowed down, but I know, I'm on my 21st year of business, I went through the downturn of, you know, 07, 08.
So I've been through this.
It doesn't last forever.
Every storm blows itself out at some point.
This won't last forever.
And so you just hunker down, you wait, and you know that it's going to turn.
And then it's going to be great, and you're going to be like, oh, but you got to know this isn't going to last forever.
You know, it's just the cycle of life.
It's going to go up, and you're going to do really well.
But you got to know that there's going to be a stormy day down the road, and you got to be ready for that.
And when that comes, know that, hey, this is going to last a little while, but then it's going to be a sunny day.
And it's just the way it is.
And so if you can maintain an attitude of positivity through all of it, that's the real key.
And also not looking for confirmation bias.
You're saying, like, you know, you'll start getting negative, then you get on Facebook, and then it gives you confirmation bias, all this negativity, people talking about politics or, you know.
Yeah, I can't believe so and so did that.
And it just, yeah.
It feeds the confirmation bias, that the world is a bad place, that life sucks, that whatever.
It's just, if you look for it, you'll find it.
So, yeah.
No, it's crazy, man.
Yeah.
And then it's hard, as most of us know, not to have knee-jerk reactions.
Like, I remember, whatever, the last time the market, like, decently crashed.
What was that?
The 08, right?
Along with the housing crisis and all that kind of stuff.
And my in-laws, and even my good buddy, Tim, they're like, oh, yeah, yeah.
So they're like, oh, quick.
And so they, what little my in-laws had, because in his retirement and pension and so forth, so whatever they had in the market, they took it upon themselves to sell it.
The fear of losing everything.
They should have bought.
They should have bought.
They should have gone crazy and bought.
Yeah, and I remember how mad they got at me at a dinner table that particular time.
I'm like, eh, you know, historically, you guys just sit on it.
Just leave it.
Oh, no, you know.
And, you know, sure enough, because again, nothing against them, but we're not investors.
I'm certainly not meaning, you know, I don't watch the market.
I don't know bonds and anyway, blah, blah, blah.
So they didn't put it back in.
And sure enough, you know, had that money just sat there and even added a little more like he was during that period of time, you know, X amount a month, you know, what he had at the time, which did cut by like 30 or 40%.
But at this time now, this many years later would have been triple or quadruple what it was at that time.
So, you know, again, it just, that's the hard part.
It's hard for all of us.
Don't get, try your best not to get sucked in.
And even if you do get sucked in, then give yourself your own kick in the ass and go look at a puppy video.
Figure out something that makes you remember like, dude, none of that matters.
I dated a girl that worked at America West Airlines.
She was a recruiter there.
And September 11th happened.
And dude, I remember that day.
That was crazy.
I was sitting in the living room on the floor, eating cereal, watching the news, like I did every morning before I went to work.
And I saw the first news report live of a plane at the World Trade Center, and then the next one, and it was live feed at the time.
Anyways, but a few days later, when the stock, because remember, they shut the stock market down for like a week.
When it opened back up, American West stocks, all stocks, went down like 95%, 99%.
They dropped in value.
And it went from, I'm just going off memory, but like $100 a share to like $3 a share the day the markets opened back up.
And there was a pilot at American West that my girlfriend knew, and he had some savings set aside, and he bought, he came in and bought like all the savings in American West stock.
That was like $3 a share the day the market opened back up.
And then within a week, that $3 went back to like $100 a share, right?
Wow.
He went from, you know, whatever, 300,000 savings to like 30 million in savings, whatever it was, I don't know, but it was a ton.
And obviously he retired, right?
He's like, I'm done being a pilot.
Seizing the moment when it's dead.
Warren Buffett doesn't buy when the market's at the top, he buys when the market's at the bottom.
That's the secret to any of this stuff, is to see the silver lining in the bad, where the general population, we're just so focused on the negativity, the really smart people, Warren Buffett, see the opportunity in that moment.
So, another thing I want to say, Jon, and I meant to talk about this when I talked about risk earlier, was bet on yourself.
That's the thing about me, and this thing about you, we're very much the same.
I don't have a 401k, I don't have a retirement plan, I don't have a pension for my future.
What I have is confidence that I'm the best investment I can make, and I will always bet on myself for my future.
I'm not going to bet on the stock market.
I could, I mean, if that was my thing, I could do the Warren Buffett thing.
I could be buying crypto and Apple and all this kind of stuff.
I could do that stuff, but that's not my thing.
My thing is I'm confident that I will always do the best thing I can do for our future.
I guarantee I will get up in the morning, I will put the work in, and if I don't, then I'll pick it up the next day.
I mean, that's what I can bet on.
That's what I'm extremely confident in betting on.
Yeah, but-
Not red or black on the wheel.
Bet on yourself.
You know, you're a small business owner.
Don't be afraid to bet on yourself.
It's the best investment you'll make, whether that's coming to a training class, whether that's buying Kodiak Pro and using the best materials.
You know, I'm gonna tie it back to what we're selling, but bet on yourself, bet on yourself.
You are the best investment you can make.
I promise you.
All right, so let's move on.
Our next section, which will probably be our last section based on the time, is gonna be selecting the right AR glass fiber.
And so you had a conversation with somebody overseas in the UK, maybe?
Where, I don't know.
Yeah, the UK.
Okay, so you had a conversation with somebody over in the UK, and you recommended a fiber that isn't necessarily the fiber that we normally use because his application is different than what we're doing.
Do you want to talk about that?
Well, yeah, I just want to put it, there's, there's still so much miss, I don't know, misinformation, misconception, or just miss, maybe just pure misunderstanding.
Probably a lot of subjects, but in this case, the AR fibers, he sent me a picture.
He's still using the Nippon fibers.
We've all been pretty adamant.
We're not fans of the Nippon.
I'm not saying that makes them a bad product whatsoever.
So just using that example alone, a person could take that information and be like, oh yeah, you know, Jon said the Nippon fibers are crap.
Well, no, no, no, no, no, they're not crap.
What they actually are very well suited for because they're a soft fiber would be hand back layups and et cetera, et cetera.
So I guess where I'm going with this, we're about to go with it is the conversation had a was the Nippon fibers, which, you know, like the, I call them the feather fibers, right?
And I'm not a fan of those specifically for the SCC, which he happened to be talking to me about.
I'm like, yeah, no, you're not going to, you're going to struggle with those.
You're not going to get the flow you want and et cetera.
So then we had a conversation about the two different texts, not the size of the fiber or the length of the fiber, but just the difference in TEX.
And what I found interesting is, and this is what I want to try to tell people, try not to do is, is all the information has its pros and cons based on the application.
And so he, at least it sounded like he took the information and tech support that I gave, and in a way convoluted it into a singularity of good versus bad, you know, or a good fiber versus evil, evil fiber.
And that's not necessarily true.
So the 135 TEX, which we've talked a lot about, which at least in America is kind of like the standard size for GFRC, either half inch or three quarter inch.
I think those are phenomenal fibers.
And I think you're great.
They're great.
You know what?
Almost toothpick-like fibers, and they're great.
In what a lot of people are calling standard GFRC, right?
Spraying the face, doing a back layup and et cetera.
So they're phenomenal fibers.
Once you move those into SCC casting, again, strength-wise, they are phenomenal fibers.
There's no question about it.
The issue becomes, and if we call it an issue, if that fiber shows up in the face of an SCC cast, that fiber, the 135 versus the 82, is just a slightly thicker fiber than the 82.
That's all.
Has nothing to do with strength.
It has nothing as much to do with flow.
You know, it has to do with that one sole category of a possibility of the 135 versus the 82.
So that's what happened.
And I think he misunderstood what I was talking about.
He's like, oh yeah, see, Jon said, and I'm like, well, no.
You gotta take into context what the application is.
And a lot of us have switched to the 82, but again, context of that switch had to do with SCC castings specifically, and the potential, remember this again, the potential avoidance of a fiber showing up and being a little more stealthy.
You're still going to see it, but it's all because it's just a smaller fiber.
That's all.
So I hope anybody thinking about that and, you know, the different types of AR and their applications.
That's what it boils down to.
Nippon still are very good fibers.
The Owens Corning are good fibers.
The 135s are phenomenal fibers.
The 82 are great fibers.
And take it based on the application, not a set rule that says this one's better than that one, or this one is not.
Makes sense.
I guess there's factors to consider, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Yeah.
Yeah, your use will determine the best fiber to use.
Yeah, and I agree.
We have our opinions on which ones we like for our use.
That's it.
Just for the way we use them.
This is the best fiber that we found, and we've tried the other ones.
Not that they're bad.
I always gotta say, it's like a Seinfeld episode.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Not that they're bad, but for the way we, our workflow and our application, we don't recommend those for this reason.
These are the ones we recommend for this reason.
I don't have stock in either company.
We don't get a kickback or any type of fee or anything for promoting one over the other.
It's just our own experience has led us to these conclusions.
But yeah, if you're doing something different, then you might be better suited with a different fiber, and you should try them and find what works best for you.
Right?
Right.
At the end of the day.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Let's wrap it up, Jon Schuler.
All right, buddy.
Until next time, two weeks from now, two weeks from now, we'll do another one.
Sounds good, my friend.
All right, man.
All right.
Adios.
Adios.