Mastering the Art of Concrete Molds: Insider Tips with Gabriel and Ashlea

In this episode of The Concrete Podcast, we're thrilled to welcome back Gabriel and Ashlea from Designer Concrete Supplies LTD, straight from the UK. If you're in the world of concrete—or you’re eager to break into it—this episode is all about transforming your process and leveling up your craftsmanship. Gabriel and Ashlea share game-changing tips on mold building, from the fine art of applying conversion varnish to using mold rubber effectively. Along the way, you'll uncover the details that make all the difference in durability, texture, and the ultimate finish. Tune in, get inspired, and find out how these small tweaks can bring out the best in your work, every single time.

#ConcreteCrafting #StorytellingInBusiness #MoldBuilding #ConcretePodcast #SelfDevelopment #CreativeProcess #ArtisanTips #ConcreteDesign #GrowthMindset

TRANSCRIPT:

Hello, Jon Schuler.

Hello, Brandon Gore.

Hello, Gabriel Duckett.

Hello.

How are you doing?

Well, wait a minute, before we get going here, I want to just, and I didn't even tell Brandon about this, this is a historic day.

Let's cover the elephant in the room.

Yeah.

How you doing?

Hi.

Yeah, I'm here too.

Just kidding.

Going by what was going on in the US yesterday.

Was it yesterday?

Yeah, it was yesterday.

Election day.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Reverberation throughout the world for your elections.

Yeah.

Does it really?

Did you guys watch that stuff last night?

If you go on to one of the most popular, sorry, news channels or websites in the UK is the BBC.

And if you go on there, the headline is US election.

And the first kind of like five different tabs are all about the US election.

You even have a dedicated space for it.

And this is on the British part of the BBC as well.

So it's not the American BBC.

It's crazy here.

So, yeah.

Interesting.

The world is watching.

I didn't even know anything was going on.

You remember the old saying, don't you?

If America sneezes, England catches a cold.

So that's very much what it is like here.

No, I haven't heard that.

No.

Yeah, that's the same we have in the UK.

America sneezes if we catch a cold or the flu.

So yeah, supposedly because we're old allies, I think.

Interesting.

Right on.

Well, let's get this podcast going.

Last time I talked politics, we lost customers, so I'm not going to bring up politics.

So I'm just going to keep that out of it.

But what I will say about politics, the one thing I will say is me and my wife are on different spectrums, but we still get along.

That's the thing about, I think, sometimes people, we get so polarized and we think, if you have a different viewpoint, you're the enemy.

But no, you can have different viewpoints and still be friends.

Well, we've talked about that, not just politics related to government and so forth, but it's felt that way about materials, right?

I mean, shoot, my God, just a minute ago, and that's why I was kind of joking.

Before Gabe was Gabe, you know, as, you know, oh my God, he was everybody's friend.

Before he was born?

What are you talking about?

Before Gabe was Gabe.

Well, because anyway, you know, changed his name, you know, anyway, blah, blah, blah.

Personal, personal reasons, but right.

He was everybody's friend.

And then, you know, politics.

So I'm just saying, you know, politics is the craziest thing.

It's it reverberates in everything.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Well, I think it's more tribalism than politics.

But yeah, people choose camps and then draw lines in the sand.

And if you cross that line, you go to another side, whether it's political or products or whatever.

Now you're the enemy.

Now we're no longer friends, which is crazy.

It's a very crazy mindset to have.

All from bags of dust.

All from bags of dust.

Dude, I saw a post on Instagram from somebody that has been buying Kodiak, and they posted a little story, and they just got some mix in.

And I could see on the mix, it's not Kodiak, it's a different product, right?

I could see on the pal, I'm like, what's this?

What's this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I called him up, and we had a little conversation.

I'm like, hey, what's up with that?

And he's like, oh, sorry, dude, I just had a project, and I could get it quick, but I'm going to order Kodiak.

But I told him, listen, whether you use Kodiak or don't use Kodiak, it doesn't matter to me.

I just want to make sure you didn't have a problem, and we didn't know about it.

And if you did, what could we do to help you sort it out?

But if you want to switch products, dude, you can switch products.

You're not beholding the Kodiak, and I'll still be your friend, and we're happy to help you however we can.

So yeah, I mean, you don't have to use Kodiak.

You're such a better person than me, man.

Everybody knows it.

Jon's the bad guy.

Jon is the bad guy.

Jon is the bad guy, dude.

I get blamed for everything.

Jon skirts everything.

And then, dude, I just shipped.

I spent three days putting together the Christmas stuff and labels and cards and everything.

Three days, all weekend, Saturday, Sunday, both days.

And then, yesterday, it was, you know, the post office.

You should have seen their face.

I pulled up my whole back of my trucks just filled.

And yeah, but anyways, but here's what's going to happen.

We talked about this, but mark my words.

The thanks are going to start rolling in here in a week.

All to Jon, 100% to Jon.

Jon's just going to be like, oh, yeah, that's my pleasure.

My pleasure.

He's like, Chick-fil-A, my pleasure.

It's my pleasure.

I love you guys, man.

I love you guys.

To be fair, though, when people are making order, the first order they have with us, Ashlea, puts together a little thank you card and a pack of sweets or something.

It's like a celebration, especially your first Kodiak order, like your first Radmix order.

Like, congratulations, you know, well done.

You made a good decision.

The thing is, here's what Brandon is.

If people then order like a pallet or people order half pallets, Ashlea will have like a scale of what they have from like a t-shirt or box of biscuits.

But the point is, every time somebody gets that now, they end up ringing me thanking me.

No problem.

I don't worry about it.

Glad to help you, Jon.

But this is a partnership.

Brandon, we can bond over that.

We can bond over that hard work that goes into it.

All that thought and time and the parcel packaging and queuing up.

Yep, a lot of time.

Yeah.

Well, this is a partnership.

There's days that I carry a lot more weight and there's days that Jon carries more weight.

And we don't keep track of those things.

We're not tallying who's doing what.

Like this is a partnership.

And so there's going to be times when I'm going to do more, there's going to be times when you're going to do more.

And that's just part of it.

And you know, you take the good with the bad.

And sometimes, dude, Jon is, you know, running, running crazy trying to stay on top of stuff.

And it's outside of my wheelhouse and he takes care of it.

And then there's other times I'm doing the same thing.

So yeah, it's just part of it.

Same to you.

Same to you.

So that's what it's all about.

That's what it's all about.

So this podcast, I think a good thing to talk about would be mold making.

We really want to just talk, you know, a discussion with Gabriel about what's different because I was telling Jon, this whole catalyzed conversion varnish thing was new to me, but it's something you've been doing.

So I think you approach mold making, whether that's products or techniques or whatever, differently than we do in the US.

And I'd love to hear the things you're doing, tips and tricks you have.

You know, what's different that you're doing in the UK versus what we're doing in the US.?

And it could be because materials availability that you have that are different, or it could just be a whole different mindset, you know, of how you approach things.

I mean, the varnish that you're speaking on, the conversion varnish over here, it's from a company called Armcom.

Now, I got onto this varnish by an incredible mold maker, my mentor in mold making, called Terry, excuse me, maybe six years ago.

Now, before, obviously, I got the knowledge of the varnish.

I was doing the same as everybody else, so resin, epoxy, which would then need waxing, multiple layers, and you know the score.

We've all covered that before.

And then, obviously, Terry introduced me to this varnish, which I just happened to call Terry's Magic Varnish, because it didn't revolutionize, but it changed the way I view molds, because previously, you'd obviously have plywood or marine-grade plywood or something.

MDF, doesn't matter what it was, you have to make a mold, and then you have to soak it and do all these things.

Whereas now, if I'm making molds that, let's just say you're making a kitchen sink mold.

Even though I don't make kitchen sinks, we'll have to keep it simple.

If you're making one of those, previously, I can say you have to get plywood, then you'd coat it, and then you'd do this, you'd do that.

Whereas now, I'll just make it all out of melamine, and then obviously sand it, fill all the pin nail holes, screw holes, or whatever, and then just coat the whole thing in one coat of varnish.

So in that essence, it sped up how I can make box molds, which is the majority of what we do in this industry, is make boxes very quickly.

So genuinely, I've come in sometimes, let's just say, hypothetically Monday, and I've got to make one of these box molds.

By the afternoon, my mold is ready to cast.

I could cast there, and then on occasion when I've been pushed, I have cast the same day I've made the mold and coated it in varnish.

So it revolutionized how I look at molds in terms of speed and not having to make someone it's going to last, or I've got to wax it or I've got to get out the mold.

And the other revolution with it was obviously joining boards together.

So obviously you've spoken about the ad nauseam on this podcast, but the way I joined two melamine, I literally joined two melamine sheets now, so I put them together, I screw them from underneath with just some scraps of wood.

Obviously with screws that aren't going to stick out with the top, and then I just V out the join with a router, fill it with body filler, and the most important thing is just to make sure you sand that join flat.

I typically start with a palm sander like a Merkur or Fez tool, but then I often will finish it the second, so I'll fill it again the second time, and then I'll actually sand it with a block of wood, or Merkur actually do a block with a Hoover attachment, so I'll use that and then use sandpaper, because what I've found is if you just use an orbital, sometimes because the pads are quite spongy, you can dig a little bit and groove the filler, so I'll just finish it with the block, and then I will coat it once or twice, the whole board with varnish once or twice.

Obviously, you've got to make sure you just key the mill at mine a bit, so I'll take a 120 grit, 180 grit pad, sand the whole thing, and then clean it, and then just coat it in, generally, one coat of varnish, brush it on, and then roll it off, or you can spray it.

Because I don't have the spray facilities in terms of extraction, I tend not to do that.

I'll brush it on and then use a foam roller just to flatten it and get a nice finish.

Okay, so you guys are all hitting me on something.

I got a project coming up, Vanity.

Same thing, I got to hand make the mold.

I'm literally falling through everything.

This is great, man.

I'm sitting here being taught along the way.

I'm going to use marine gray plywood.

I had already planned my three coats of surfboard, resin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but because I was under the impression your conversion varnish always had to be sprayed.

And same thing, I'm not set up to spray.

So I don't understand it's not being set up for spraying thing.

Like I just spray.

What do you need to be set up for?

It's legit because I have not done any spraying of GFRC or anything.

I don't even have a compressor.

Oh, I was going to say this is just an HVLP from Harbor Freight.

Understood.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm not set up at all.

I have no compressor.

What?

I've never done it.

Yeah, dude, I just know I have no compressor.

I think I might be able to find like a construction related one, like a portable one.

But yeah, there's not.

I don't have a compressor in my shop at all.

Do you have a Harbor Freight near you?

Yeah, I'm sure I could go pick something up.

Well, I think they I think they have like Turbine HVLPs, which are just like a little portable compressor that goes with it.

I think they sell those at Harbor Freight.

They're probably 150 bucks, whatever.

I mean, you can roll it.

I haven't tried rolling it.

You could roll it.

But if you spray it, I mean, it comes out pretty glassy smooth just spraying.

Yeah, yeah.

For me, it's you spoken before, Jon, and we spoke privately about solvents and the carriers and how harmful they are.

So even if even if I wear a mask, I can still smell it in my workshops.

So typically, I do spray things, but I'll do it at the end of the day before I leave.

But don't you like that smell?

I like that smell.

Dude, I love it.

I come in the next day, I'm like, man, it smells good.

Yeah, yeah.

It's the elephant to see after the purple elephant talking to me that I've gone like.

Yeah, I do spray things.

I mean, you know, you've obviously both seen privately that the metal finishes I'm doing out of bronze and brass.

We're doing quite a lot of that now with our furniture.

So I typically spray that.

But yeah, it's towards the end of the day.

I'll spray, shut the door and run away.

But yeah, the thing with the varnish is, even though it can be sprayed for me, I was shown by Terry to brush it and roll.

And it's just as quick.

So and the finish is just as good.

So I think it's one of those sometimes, Brandon.

It's just a habit.

Sure.

Yeah.

I mean, to be to be honest.

So when you roll it, what kind of roller are you using to roll?

Just a foam roller.

Just don't use a cheap one because they fall apart.

Because I'm not sure if the conversion barnes that was found over there is the equivalent to mine exactly, but mine's solvent based.

So as long as you've got a decent quality foam roller, the ass won't fall out of the roller.

Excuse my French.

You know, it won't fall apart.

So you can literally roll it quite a few times before you get any kind of, you know, pull off the foam roller at all and leave little bits, at least not with the rollers I use.

Gotcha.

So you use a foam roller.

Put on a pretty heavy coat.

Let itself level.

Yeah.

Do a light sand and then do it again.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So my process is, especially for joining the miller mine, just to make sure, you know, that body filler join doesn't show through.

I will put a heavy coat all over, excuse me, and then I'll roll it, the roller, let it glass off.

And to be fair, at that point, you know yourself in light, in the certain kind of angles of the light, I can see that there's a nice thick coat.

I say thick, it's all relative, over the entire sheet or the two sheets joined together.

Same for the box molds.

But you can tell with that joined melamine, if it's got like a nice glassy finish over the whole thing.

And typically after one coat, you know, a thicker coat of that, it's done.

And that's it.

And then just give it a light sand afterwards, just to flatten out.

Because obviously, you know yourself, different between spraying and rolling, with the foam roller, it does kind of leave little tiny pimples here or there.

So like a 320 grit just to smooth the whole thing out.

And then ready, no waxing required.

And that's the big thing about the varnish as well.

You don't need to wax after it.

You can, and it will make the release a tiny bit easy, but you don't need to.

The concrete won't stick to it, at least not in my experience here.

But for the box molds, sink molds or whatever, I always do two coats just to be on the safe side, because especially for you, Jon, if you're using plywood, you know, whereas I'm using melamine, because it's just cheap and easy and quick and it's on the shelf, I would definitely do a minimum of two coats for that.

But the beauty is you'll be able to put one coat on, it'll soak in within 45 minutes, it'll be dry.

You can give it a very light hand sand all over, clean it and then do another coat.

The second coat will pretty much even out the entire surface.

And then if you wanted to, you can do a third coat with a light sand.

But we're talking like, it's a bit like Radmix essentially, and the speed of it, it's back to back to back.

You're not waiting for like four hours.

We don't need an infrared lamp.

It'll dry very quickly even in the winter in cold shops.

Well, there you go.

Then I may head over to Harbor Freight and put what we're talking about right now and pick up one that's attached to the little turban.

And I'll try them up for trying something new.

Yeah.

It's new to me anyway.

Yeah.

Or you can roll it.

You mentioned in the last podcast about fabric forming.

And obviously, the way it pulls on fabric and you get this twisted mold, I've been there myself.

But typically, you can use this to finish fabric forming off.

So I'll soak someone in resin and then I'll brush it or roll it or spray on the fabric form for the final coat.

So I can turn fabric forms around really quickly.

Now I can make a fabric form, start to finish in about three or four hours.

So it's good for all sorts of things like that.

So it has revolutionized how I can build molds very quickly.

But don't forget, a lot of the molds I'm building quickly, a mold that you know yourself, I'm only going to use it once and I'm pretty much going to break it out or I'm willing to, for it to be broken apart or if it does break apart when it's being used.

Yeah, that's where I'm at.

This project I got coming up that I got to start, actually today, I'm not saving the mold.

So it's a custom.

Absolutely.

So yeah, if anyone's got any questions on it, the more than welcome to ask me.

And I can advise there, but it's pretty simple to use.

But any questions, let me know.

So I'm on Harbor Freights site right now, Jon.

They have a little two-stage portable HVLP paint and stain sprayer on sale right now for $99, normally $140.

So yeah, $99, not bad.

So yesterday's election really is moving us forward.

We just lost sales in San Francisco, Jon.

Portland, the boycott in Kodiak.

Shut up, Jon.

Shut up.

Dude, we legit lost customers from my rantings a while back.

This was years ago, but Jon has talked to people and they're like, why don't you buy Kodiak?

Oh, because Brandon was talking trash on Facebook about a political candidate, you know.

The funny thing is, I've changed my views.

So the people that didn't like me now would love me, and the people that love me will now hate me.

But whatever, you know, it is what it is.

You're just living up to the name of Brandon Gore, the Marmite of Concrete.

Yeah, right.

I have no idea what that means, but probably.

Yeah, it's like a spreadable product.

That's the Australian stuff, right?

Yeah, it's, yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's a bit like Vegemite, I think you might call it over there.

You either love it or you hate it.

It's fermented or what is it?

It's gross.

Yeast, right?

Yeast.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeast it is.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's not the best.

You love it or you hate it.

So the Vegemite stuff.

Yeah, smells horrible.

No, that stuff's nasty.

Yeah, it smells pretty bad.

It is.

Yeah.

No, I shouldn't say it's nasty.

Now we just lost the Australian sales.

Now in Australia, they're like, Yeah, hang on.

No more cognac, mate.

It was because I tried some when we were out there.

And I would just say it's a unique flavor.

So it reminds me like when I first started drinking coffee and I thought, oh my God, this is horrible coffee.

You found mushroom coffee.

Then you found the mushroom.

Yeah.

Then I got into mushrooms.

Okay.

It was mushrooms.

Yeah.

One night when I was like, you know, walking around and I thought, wow, that's those lights in those.

Why are they coming after me?

Dude, mushrooms are awesome.

And now coffee is amazing.

So anyway, a long way around.

Yeah, I could see that like anything else.

It would take an acquired taste.

What people don't realize is that this new 2K fusion seal has come from Jon drinking all this mushroom coffee.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

You know, what's his name?

Steve Jobs early on said that he wouldn't hire any programmers unless they had done LSD.

Because it opened up their way of thinking.

That was his thought was they needed to open up their way of thinking.

Yeah.

Opens doors up in the mind.

And yeah, exactly.

Great.

I know.

Well, let's get Jon some LSD.

I think that could be dangerous.

I went through my acid stage.

I don't want to go back to that.

That was crazy.

Was that when you were with Buddy Rhodes?

Buddy.

Anyway, that's terrible.

We go down a really bad, bad trip.

Oh, man.

Yep.

Well, so that's that.

But is there any other thing you're doing with rubber?

What rubber do you use in the UK?

What's available over there?

Obviously, you have Smooth On, but I use Polytech.

That's readily available here, very well priced.

So that's, to be honest, I've been using that since, I think, you told me about it two or three years ago, just because Smooth On was okay, but didn't find the longevity in it.

And some of the times it have oily substance constantly on the concrete from it.

So I think I spoke to you, Brandon, two years ago and you said, try Polytech, and I've not used anything else since.

You can get another one, which is really good, from Germany called Reckley, Reckley Rubber.

That's really good.

They're a company that do form liners.

I've used that as well.

But it's a little bit more expensive than the Polytech.

And it's okay if you're buying a bucket, where it may be 30 pound more or $50 more.

But when you're buying 10 buckets, five, $600 more, it soon adds up.

So that's generally stick to Polytech.

So I'll be fair, my kind of rubber experience is quite limited.

I've done a few jacket molds, made a few form liners, but I've never done anything exciting with rubber really, to be honest with you.

I plan to, I have some projects that we're working on, some products rather, and they'll be part rubber, part fibregas mold.

So they'll be pretty exciting.

So yeah, fibregas is another one.

Fibregas is made out to be some sort of rocket science and it really isn't ultimately.

Oh yeah, it's pretty simple.

Yeah, it's just a gel coat with ultimately, a resin soaked fibres in to give it strength.

And obviously you just use Wardore foam rips and then obviously fibregas over those to get your strength in your fibregas.

So yeah, I've spent quite a bit of time figuring out how to make a bathtub, fibregas mold and obviously all the pressures in a bathtub.

And then, you know, I had a friend of mine in Australia who doesn't do this anymore called Domano Adam.

And he had a bathtub fibregas mold made and he had steel reinforced rips that were put up very close to the gel coat, they were as close as they needed to be.

And unfortunately, when he cast the first bath in this mold, the actual steel ribs ghosted through the concrete.

I think it was on the initial cast or not, I'm not sure, but yeah.

So I learned that lesson from him second hand.

But yeah, so that's kind of for me.

What I'd probably say is in terms of this year, I've obviously done the water feature.

I think some people may have seen that I did.

That was quite an intricate mold.

I had a lot going on it.

That was foam-coated mold, but the foam was cut by me and shaped by me to kind of get a cabinet door, a ledge for the water feature part to sit on and all sorts of other things.

So that was quite intense.

And then obviously the modular kitchen I made everything from concrete including the door.

So that was quite, yeah.

I'll be honest with you, going into that kitchen, it was a case of, this will be simple.

It's just boxes.

Yeah, right?

Yeah.

If I could go back and slap myself literally a year to the week, I would go back.

Yeah.

Because it's not simple to make a box in a box and then how are you going to take that apart?

How are you going to get the box out?

You know, the kind of draft angle because you got a cabinet and you don't want it to be too much of an angle because then it's going to look weird when you look on the cabinet.

It won't look, you know what I mean?

All those little things you think about.

It was a hell of a mammoth of a job.

It should have took me three months, took me about six, but the end results.

We had a guy in the class, in the fundamentals class, named Daniel.

I think Daniel reached out to you.

Yeah, yeah, Daniel.

I think he reached out to you, Gabriel, but totally new to Concrete.

He's been doing flat work, but never done GFRC, never done anything complex, and he came to a fundamentals class, and during the class, actually, he came to, the first class he came to was a Hero's Quest in California, and then he came to the fundamentals.

And Hero's Quest was, it was too, too much too fast for him, because he was new to concrete.

So he came to that, he was like, oh my God.

And it was the, I think it was the advanced mold making one.

So it was a pretty complex one.

Then he came out here to Kansas, to the fundamentals class, and during that class, he's like, hey, I think I'm gonna make this kitchen, like a modular kitchen, one inch thick concrete, these boxes and a steel frame.

And I said, dude, listen, don't let me squash your dreams.

Like I'm not trying to poo poo what you want to do.

It's doable.

I'm not saying it's not achievable.

I'm just saying that's a very complex project to take on at this point in where you're at.

You know, you're fairly new.

I would start small, I'd start with a planter.

You know, I'd start with this, and I'd work my way up to more complex things.

He didn't listen at all.

He went home and made it, and dude, he did it.

Like it blew my mind.

He sent me photos.

He actually did it.

Made pretty much very similar to what you're doing, like these boxes and a steel frame system, and it was all modular.

And just goes to show you, like you can do anything you want to do if you're determined.

But he took on one of the most complex things you can do, as you very well know.

And it was successful, which is amazing.

Yeah, the hardest part of that job, making the molds initially, and then figuring out how to make the internal box so it comes out easily, which to be quite honest with you, is still a learning progression, because you want something that's quick and fast.

But the hardest thing was the doors.

So I went through so many hinges.

I think I've got maybe 17 sets of hinges that I can't use now.

It's about nearly, I think maybe 800 pound in hinges of all sorts, just so I could fix.

Yeah, just because I ordered so many and some of them are so expensive because they're kind of custom made for like these.

We're talking like commercial doors.

Some of these hinges are found because the problem is, is the normal kind of door width, I'm not sure why it's in American, but in the UK, because my doors are twice that width and it's concrete and it's heavy, and it's kind of squatting short and heavy rather than tall.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

I had to go through so many hinges and so many door designs because honestly, just if anyone's thinking of making concrete doors, my advice is don't.

Unless you're prepared to spend about a month just making so many different door thicknesses and edge thicknesses, just to figure out what you can actually slam shut without it snapping itself or cracking after, like repeated slams because that's what people don't think of.

You've got to put yourself in the position of the homeowner.

That's not going to close things gently because it's someone they've handmade.

Ultimately for them, it's just a means to an end and to door.

Yeah.

It took me a long time.

Again, finding the right hinge.

That was fun.

Now I look back, it was fun when I was doing it at the time.

I think I nearly had a breakdown.

I had to ring one of my best friends and say, you need to come and help me.

I think I'm going mad.

Well, I did something similar.

Hold on, Jon, I just want to hop in here on that door thing because I went on the same road.

What I ended up doing, and I guess I wonder why you went the way you went, what was the determining factor.

But what I did was I just did traditional wood doors and I skinned them in concrete, so I laminated concrete to it.

But I just used, I think I used Bloom, and I went on their website and I calculated how much weight and it was like four hinges per door.

But I did wood doors and I laminated concrete to the exterior.

So why did you go all concrete?

Just for aesthetics?

So when you opened it, it was concrete on the inside as well?

Yeah, a couple of reasons.

Number one, because I'm stupid and I like a challenge.

That's a genuine...

There you go.

There you go.

On record.

Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Yeah, you kept telling me, why are you doing this all in concrete?

But the thing for me was, because I want to market this to the very luxury markets, I tried to put myself in the shoes of people, and obviously none of us are rich, let's be honest.

But you think, when you buy a luxury item, even as something as simple as a Rolex, which I thought was a high-end watch until I started looking at high-end watches, and it's actually not as high-end as I thought.

But when you look at a Rolex, every part on that is thought about, is considered, and it's there for a purpose.

And it's the best quality materials.

Now, my thinking was, if you open that door and you see a piece of plywood or a piece of wood, to me, it just cheapens the feel of it.

So that was one of the reasons.

And also because I think my entire time in this industry, I've tried to be a trailblazer, not for the industry or for anybody else, but for myself to show myself what I'm capable of.

Yeah, you like to push yourself, yeah.

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

So for me, it's like, I've not seen anybody do, probably have, but I've not seen anybody that I know make a concrete door entirely, especially 10 millimeters, which is less than half an inch thick, you know, light weight.

I've not seen anybody do that.

And I thought I'd like that challenge.

But if I'm being honest with myself, the main reason was, say, the aesthetics.

I wanted people to see this kitchen and everything look considered.

And, you know, it was done for a reason, you know, no kind of, when I say no expense sped, no kind of thought sped.

Yeah.

Michael, so, and I missed it.

So when it was said and done, you found the hinge and how did you attach the hinge to the door and essentially the concrete frame?

I'm glad you brought that up.

Oxy, I mean, something simple.

So, yeah, because I'm a bit slow, I cast all the cabinets first without having any kind of receiving media, like a pocket cast into it.

Exactly.

It's really clever and cast all the cabinets first, which is playing concrete cabinets.

And then it was a case of there's 16 hinges.

Each hinge has obviously a cover plate and there's four bolts or four screw holes for each cover plate.

So then you end up having four, you got 16 holes I had to then drill into one cabinet.

Don't worry, Jon, it gets better.

So to basically drill those out and then chemical anchor them all in, which is very difficult on a small hole, I must say.

And then, yeah, I was even more intelligent.

Instead of getting certain sized, threaded out all thread, little tiny, say like inch long or two inch long ones, which I didn't realize you get off the shelf.

I bought one meter long all thread and then had to then thread on all 16 nuts and then cut the all thread with the nuts on and then take the nut.

Yeah, so basically I made my own kind of threaded inserts.

Your own little inserts, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, but that took me two days and you wouldn't think it would.

But when you cut in, I think it was like a hundred of them or something like that.

Yeah, that was, yeah, yeah.

Took me a week to fit doors.

So yeah, Brandon, what I'm trying to say is you have the smart and right idea.

I was just a bit stupid.

I just took the lazy route.

I just said I know how to make a wood cabinet.

I'm just going to glue concrete to the doors and make them.

I did a con.

What I did is I made a wood cabinet and I glued concrete to the sides.

It was a it was an erosion sink.

If you go back on my Instagram years ago, this is probably 2015 maybe.

It was a long time ago, but it was an erosion sink where it was a white concrete floating cabinet with a white erosion sink on top and then white concrete door.

When it was all closed, it was all concrete.

When you opened it up inside, it was all Baltic birch, the cabinet.

The client liked it and in the end, it was not too difficult to make.

I want to hit, I wrote a note here.

When you're talking about hinges, is I used sauce hinges here at my shop, but Sugastani makes some really good hinges that are like five-way adjustable.

Did you look at Sugastani?

Yeah, so they specifically make a heavy duty version of that.

It's not soft close or anything, unfortunately.

This is like an industrial door.

So they're the ones I end up using.

I can't pronounce it.

You pronounce it quite well.

And Sugastani is it?

So they're the ones.

Awesome.

That's what you used.

Yeah, but they're about 50 pound for one hinge.

So they're not cheap.

So yeah, really expensive.

But did you get the ones that were like five-way adjustable, you can adjust all different directions?

Yeah, exactly that.

Yeah.

Cool.

I got to tell everybody how stupid I am.

So if you're sitting there talking about, man, they're about 50 pounds.

I'm thinking, dude, that's a heavy hinge.

They're talking about money, Jon, money, body.

Why would it be 50 pounds?

Again, I'm just telling you, man, that's where my mind goes.

But anyway, get back to it.

And I was going to add another thing.

So you walk through that whole process, which I completely appreciate it.

And like all of us, and this is something that we've stood tall, probably too tall about many, many times.

We can discount or you can, you know, when we go through all of us, go through a process in this creative adventure, pushing ourselves, doing things that we don't think other people have done, or at least we haven't.

But that's what our experience, man.

You know, I mean, that to me, I can't even think of the credit card.

That's the priceless part of all of this is, aside from your pushing yourself, which a lot of people, let's just be straight about it, they don't for a whole lot of reasons, good or bad, it just happens, because everything you're describing right now, you probably, you know, at the end of the day, regardless of what you charge for this, maybe at the moment, it's a one-off.

You're still waiting for other projects to come in, but it was super cool.

You wanted it to do it.

We talk about it all the time.

And every moment of that experience is now what makes you and pushes you to the next level artisan that you're hoping to become.

And now you're looking for that next step wherever it might be.

To me, that's what it's always about, man.

That's what I like about enough people in this little industry, whether it's a new design, a new technique, a new finish, a new mix, sealer, whatever the case may be, it's great to see that people are doing it.

And along that path, hey, man, you're going to fail.

And you should fail.

Because if you don't fail, you don't learn.

Well, that's why he did it.

He did it to fail.

Because that's where growth happens.

You said this with your son.

You don't learn from the wins.

You learn from the losses.

So when Gabriel went down this road, I think he went into it knowing it's going to be a lot of failure, but you're going to learn through the process.

Yeah.

Just like I did all the beauty in my brilliant design is I made all the cabinets first without thinking like, oh, how was I going to attach these?

I mean, dude, that's brilliant.

You know what I mean?

But you only do that once.

You learned.

You're like, next time I'm going to start with the hinges and then go the other way.

Yeah, that's awesome.

Awesome.

So I have a question for you, Gabriel.

Yeah.

What do you love about what you do for a living?

What do you love about it?

I think it's always been from the very beginning the same, which is when I first started in the industry or first became aware of in 2015, seeing basic fabric form, sinks at the time, blew my mind.

In essence, what you can create from it.

You think of an idea and you can create it from concrete.

That's what I've always loved about it.

That's what I've always found draws me to it.

Just use your imagination and ultimately, you've got a material that will, it's liquid, isn't it?

In ultimate, it will take any shapes that you want it to as long as you can make a mold.

That's what's always drawn me to it, is its potential.

And I really don't believe the potential of concrete has even been scratched yet.

I still think it's too new of an industry to know what it's truly capable of.

And I think that's what keeps me excited.

And incidentally, with us selling mix and training people and helping people, seeing what they do and the different ideas they have, because we can only have limited ideas ourselves, that also gives me a lot of enjoyment seeing what people are creating, especially when you do help them.

I will say selfishly, and you know you played a small part in helping them get to where they are.

You do have a bit of a kind of prideful moment so that they have got there with a little bit of your help.

But that's where I would say, seeing what can be created with concrete.

What's yours?

Well, for me personally, it's the same thing.

It's being able to see the end result of an idea come from inside my head to reality.

That's what I love about it.

When I was younger, I used to work in hotel operations.

And a good day is a day where the hotel doesn't burn down.

That's a good day.

Like, when I came to work the next day, if the hotel was still there, then I did my job.

And that was very unfulfilling to me.

But with this, I can have an idea for a chair.

I was taking a shower that morning, and I thought of this chair.

And when I came in, we built the mold.

And then two or three days later, we had the first modern Muskoka chair.

And I could see it through to an end tangible product.

For my personality, for my mindset, that is very satisfying, and I love that.

And I have a passion for that.

Money is secondary to what I do.

You said this earlier, none of us are rich.

There's nobody rich in this industry.

We all do it.

The people that do this long term are people that are passionate about it.

They didn't get into it because they're like, man, I'm gonna become wealthy.

You know, Jon and I were talking about the politics going on in the US right now.

And I was listening to the radio this morning on the way in, and they were talking about people that support Trump.

And it was a really stupid conversation.

But they're saying, you know, they voted for him because they aspire to be rich like him.

No, Jon and I, we have no illusions that we're ever going to be wealthy doing concrete.

Like, we don't do this because we're going to be wealthy.

We do this because we love what we do and because there's more to life than profit.

There's quality of life.

There's enjoying going to work every day.

And so that's why I do what I do, is I am truly passionate about making things in my hands and seeing the end result.

And now as time has gone on, this is going to be my 22nd year in business, as time has gone on, now my passion is making the details better than they were last year.

So that comes back to the Kodiak thing, our philosophy with better ingredients, like Papa John's, better ingredients, better pizza.

You don't live in the US, but that's the slogan over here.

But better ingredients.

We have better ingredients with the mix, better ingredients with the sealer, even the pigments we have manufactured.

We manufacture them to a higher spec than what's on the market.

And all those things play into having a better end result.

And that's what...

Yeah, for us, it means something.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, that's where the passion is, yeah.

What about you, Jon?

Well, hang on, as long as Ashlea's here, because Ashlea, unless I'm mistaken, I mean, right, you're running the material, well, let's say, right, the...

And I don't know, man, I'm an idiot.

Designer Concrete Supplies, LTD.

There you go.

I remember everything.

Yeah, Designer Concrete Supplies.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So now that you're a part of this thing, leaving the end of wherever you were at, right?

You were doing financing or bookkeeping or something like that.

I don't remember.

Accounting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So how about you?

I mean, what are you digging about this process?

I'm trying to keep Gabriel in.

Oh, well, yeah.

I mean, we've already, it's interesting hearing him relay his experience of those cabinet doors, because the first thing I said was, do you realize how much time in R&D that will take?

So, you know, I'm trying to always rein him in a little and, you know, still have the creativity flowing, but whilst also, you know, we're a business, you have to make money.

But for me, I think when it comes to concrete, it's lovely seeing Gabriel succeed and be so passionate about something.

But for me specifically, I would say it's the community, the concrete community.

I think just within the UK, when we first, when he first started out, and I was sort of more in the background then, and obviously we hadn't set up Designer Concrete Supplies then, and obviously become a big distributor of Kodiak.

But back in those days, the few people that he started to speak to then, he was building friendships and then they'd come down and visit, or we'd pop and visit them.

And it was really nice finding like-minded people who shared the same enthusiasm and passion, but also shared the same trials and tribulations.

Concrete isn't an easy thing.

It does require a commitment and dedication.

You have to see it through to the end.

But there's something quite beautiful in that.

It's like bittersweet.

But with all of that, I think as we've then obviously taken on Kodiak and we've really expanded into Europe with our distribution, we've met so many amazing people around the world and made so many friends as well within the industry.

I don't think every industry out there can see the same.

The larger the industry, you lose that sense of community.

Whereas we are a niche industry and it's a wonderful thing.

Don't forget though, Ashlea, I don't know if it's the same in America, but in the UK, a lot of people either are afraid to help each other because you think they're going to lose bread on their table or the British way of keep yourself to yourself.

Whereas I seem to be an outlier in the sense of I always just wanted to build a community or have friends in the industry with us here so we could all talk about the trials and tribulations and just ultimately just try and help each other in some way.

And that started to come to light in the last few years at DCS as well.

But Ashlea, we've got some very good friends out from Concrete that we go out with outside of Concrete because of that.

So fostering that community, they've forgotten about that, Ashlea.

It's a good point.

Yeah.

Very good point.

Is it the same over there or is it people more open-minded over there?

Other people's success, failures, your success, failure, none of it's related in the sense of you can be successful and it had nothing to do with me and I should be happy for you.

Even if I'm struggling, if you're doing great, that's you, that's your reality, it's not my reality.

And I think people, maybe as time goes on and become, just, I don't know, more, I don't know the right word.

I can't even think of the right word.

But just, you kind of just evolve your way of thinking.

I know I've evolved my way of thinking.

Early on in my career, I used to think same thing.

I had to keep everything secret, you know, you have to like hoard your knowledge.

And then I started doing classes and sharing stuff, but not sharing everything.

I'd share this, I wouldn't share that, you know.

And as time goes on, you kind of realize like, none of that really matters in the day.

It's really just about having integrity, doing the right thing by people, treating people with respect.

And yeah, I mean, people's success or failures are their reality, and your success, failures are your reality.

And they're not, those things aren't related, in my opinion.

What are your thoughts, Jon?

No, I'm right there with you.

I would say the only next step for me that I've learned through this path is I tried to keep my success solely my own.

And that's not how I feel anymore.

I mean, I think I've talked about this in many podcasts.

When I see guys, whether, I don't know, it's terrible, whether I think it's cool or not, whether I think it is like, dude, that's amazing.

I am constantly trying to prop up and share and whatever these guys are doing.

And I just hope, and this is a conversation I've had all over the place.

Again, I don't know what amount of reach that Kodiak and ICT, Brandon Gore, Jon Schuler, I don't know what we have and maybe it's nothing and it doesn't matter.

But if my one share of something somebody's doing with a vanity sink or sharp truce boards or whatever the case may be, if that helps continue to move them along in their success, then I am incredibly happy to be a part of it.

I don't need to thank you.

I'm not interested in that.

So I'd say for me anyway, is I am more than happy to be a part of someone else's success without reaping some version of a financial, you know what I mean?

That's what's cool to me now.

And it wasn't before, it wasn't.

What did you just call a charcuterie board?

What did you call that?

Right, charcuterie board?

No, you called it chartreuse.

That's a color.

No, that's char-

I don't get a shit.

It's a color board anyway.

It's got color.

Charcuterie, man.

It's OK.

Whatever.

Olives and cheese and meats.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, not chartreuse.

Let me tell you, let me tell you a little something.

Here's my here's where I kind of was awakened to the way people are in general.

Humans are and this has nothing to do with concrete.

So there was a time in my younger days, this was many years ago before I was married, before I had kids, any of that stuff.

And I had a really good year one year financially, a really good year.

And I had this money in my account.

I'm a young single guy.

I decided I want to buy a brand new Porsche.

So I did.

I bought a brand new Porsche.

And I had a Toyota Tacoma truck that was dinged and dented and scratched as my work truck.

And I used to go to this bar in my Toyota Tacoma.

I'd pull in, I'd get out, I'd walk inside.

You know, everybody's friendly, everybody's nice.

And I got this Porsche.

And one night I drove the Porsche to the bar and I parked in the parking lot and I got out.

And there's people on the patio.

There's a patio right there.

There's people on the patio.

I don't know these people, but I get out and I hear them say, man, fuck that guy.

Look at that douche bag.

I heard him say that, right?

Now the only thing that's changed is I'm driving this nice fancy sports car.

They don't know anything about me, but they've judged me and they've judged my perceived success as I must be this bad person, right?

Not knowing like the reason I'm successful because I'm killing myself working 15 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, I earned the money, the honest way of like hard work, but they've made this judgment call.

And I think there's a human mindset with people to feel that if these people are successful, they're keeping me from being successful.

And it's like, man, that has nothing to do with me.

Nothing to do with me.

He'd heard of Brandon Gore before and thought, here's that asshole again.

Yeah.

It's a scarcity mindset, isn't it?

You know, they think that there isn't enough to go around and that's, you know, scarcity mindset.

And there's, it's the wrong way of thinking about it.

And that's what they don't realize.

They're actually holding themselves back because they've decided, oh, that this guy's succeeding, therefore, oh, well, we can't both succeed.

So that must be mean that I'm not going to succeed.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, people just need to put themselves forward and have confidence in what they can do and just see what they can achieve.

Never mind looking over the shoulder or looking to the person next to them to see how well they're doing.

You know, as Jon said, you know, with his son in the competitions, you have to focus on yourself.

If you're interested in everyone that you compete in against, then your mind's not in the right place.

Exactly.

Well, Jon talked to somebody recently, a Brandon Gore hater, but Jon had a conversation with this guy and he asked him, like, what's your deal with Brandon?

Right?

And the guy's like, well, I think he's gotten all this undue credit and he got a TV show and he did a TED Talk and he didn't deserve any of that.

And Jon's like, okay, yeah, okay, let's say that.

Let's say that he didn't deserve any of it.

Totally undeserved.

What does that have to do with you?

Well, how does that affect you in any way?

And that's a great way to, what does that have to do with you?

And then the guy just sat there, he didn't have a response to that because it has nothing to do with him.

Yeah, I would say I'm lucky more than I'm good.

Okay, whatever, sometimes I'm lucky.

Whatever.

I didn't deserve it.

I'm a horrible person.

I'm a fraud, I'm a phony, whatever.

But what does that have to do with you?

Yeah, okay.

The thing is for me, if I made a list, funny enough, ages ago, just random things to talk about on the podcast and it hits on one of them.

And I've been thinking about, in terms of when you start in this industry, when you come into it, I was thinking, if I could advise myself now on who to listen to or what should I do in this industry?

I was trying to come up with like, it sounds a bit cheesy, but pillars to abide by.

Sure.

One of them was like, in terms of, when you start the industry, we all start because we're inspired by something or someone.

And I think you talk about attrition rate in the industry.

And I think a lot of that comes down to lack of education or listening to the wrong people.

So one of the things I wrote down was, when you start, look at who inspires you and see how, when I say look at how successful they've been in terms of what they have made.

And I'm not talking about money here.

If you want to make bathtubs, go and speak to somebody or be inspired by somebody that makes bathtubs.

For example, I think a lot of people in this industry are kind of hudwinked into free courses or into learning from people that don't do it for a living.

And unfortunately, leads them down a path of failure often because they're not learning from a place of success.

At least in my view anyway, in essence, if you're starting out, look at the education somebody's had, look at the track record, look at what they have made.

Look at how long they've been doing it for.

And obviously then, ultimately with that, what kind of education can they pass on to you in the trenches experience?

And I think a lot of that is missed in this industry, whereas I feel like woodworking, that kind of, you wouldn't go and learn from somebody that's only started woodworking for a year, would you?

You go to somebody who's done it, you said Wood Whisperer, is it a channel?

Yep.

Yeah, do you know what I mean?

And that's what I feel like in this industry that we sometimes lack.

You know, we just go for the low-hanging fruit.

Well, you brought up free classes, and you have a free class coming up November 18th.

But here's the difference.

And this is what we talk about, is, you know, Kodiak Pro here in the US., Jon and I, we have plans to do some demo days in 2025.

We wanted to do some this year, we just haven't had time, but do some demo days.

But, you know, there's other companies doing demo days or doing, they even call them free workshops, like come learn how to do this and learn how to make a living from guys that don't do this and guys that don't make a living doing this.

Learn how to do that.

Doesn't make any sense, makes no sense whatsoever.

But I think sometimes people, they're looking for the easy route, they're looking for the low investment route.

They're like, well, I go do this free class and start a business, but the problem is, if you're not learning from people that actually do this for a living, you're not gonna learn how to do this for a living.

And so if there's somebody like you, Gabe and Ashlea, that are having a demo day, it's coming from a place of experience.

This is what you do.

So you're gonna do a demo day, that's a great value.

Even if it's a free class, people are gonna get a lot out of it.

Whereas a lot of these quote unquote free classes taught by material manufacturers, distributors, are taught by people that don't do this for a living, that have never bid concrete projects, client projects, dealt with callbacks.

They don't have any real world experience.

Maybe they did 10 years ago, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, but it didn't work out, and now there are salesmen at some distributor.

If you want to learn how to be a failed business, learn from a failed business.

That's always been Jon and I's mindset, and what really differentiates what we try to do is the classes that we teach with Dusty Baker, Jon Schuler, Joe Bates, myself, the people that are involved with the education all do this professionally for a living and have done so for a long time, and you're doing the same thing in the UK.

This is what you do for a living.

So that has real world value.

But yeah, I think you're 100% right.

A lot of people have made the mistake of hitching to the wrong wagon and not investing in quality education, quality information, and then they're in business for a year or whatever, and then the finances run out and they have to go back and get a corporate job.

It's just bad information in, bad information out.

I think sometimes on the flip side, in the UK, there's been a few companies packing for one reason or another recently.

Some of these people I've got to know, and they've all gone out of reason for one reason or another, but the general consensus seems to be that they just weren't earning enough money to support their families.

In a day, we're not going to get rich doing this, but you can earn enough money to have a nice lifestyle, or a nice living, yeah.

To find the balance, yeah.

Exactly, yeah.

But then these ones, we're talking about five or six companies in the last probably six to eight weeks have decided to stop doing it.

And everyone is kind of saying the same thing to me, I'm just not getting the work, but then when I'm saying to them, what are you charging?

What were you charging?

And then they tell me, and then I've said, but we had the discussion many years ago about what are your charge and won't be enough to sustain yourself.

And it always baffled me a little bit that you'd give that advice to them.

And yet they just couldn't, they couldn't reframe their own thinking that people will pay good money for a good product if you market it well and you put the effort in to do that.

And what I'm trying to say is that you give them the experience that it won't work doing it at that price, but they go ahead and do it.

And then they prove that, I don't want to be proved I was right, but do you know what I mean?

They slowly put themselves out of business.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We all do.

You learn the hard way in the beginning.

You go cheap.

It's portfolio building or whatever, but yeah.

That's always kind of upset me that I wish they'd have listened because they may still be doing it.

That's what upsets me about it.

I think there's that.

My buddy Brian Tostado had a great perspective early on.

He's like, you can always lower your price, but you can never raise your price.

So he told me that when I first started my company and I was doing these sales.

This weekend only, 50% off.

I was doing the used car salesman, the mattress salesman, all the crap stuff that you see on TV to generate sales, which is the wrong customer.

And it's the wrong mindset.

And once it's out there on the internet, it lives forever.

Gore Design Company, oh, these guys do 50% off sales.

We're just going to wait around till this guy does a sale.

Wait for the sale.

Exactly.

And same thing with Kodiak.

You don't see us doing sales.

We're not going to do sales.

Because that's not the right way.

We focus on quality.

But the problem with a lot of people that come into the industry is they're comparing concrete to commodity goods, whether that's granite or corian or whatever.

So they have that mindset right out of the gates.

And then they're missing the bigger picture.

The mantra that we repeat is design is everything.

People don't buy concrete.

They buy what you make with concrete.

But people that come into this without having that mindset are just focused on the concrete.

They're like, well, let me do this, let me do that, let me do that.

But they don't make anything of interest.

And then they go out of business.

But where you guys, or Gabriel and Ashlea, are kind of, again, outliers, is you've really focused on design.

You're always pushing design.

You're pushing design, pushing design.

And that's the most important thing to generating clientele is they're going to buy what you make with concrete.

So, you know, the tribe that we're trying to build with Kodiak and Concrete Design School is a tribe of quality, number one, quality is everything, but then design is everything.

Really push the limits of concrete.

Really push the design.

Don't just make the basic things, because if you do that, you're going to be relegated to a five-mile, 10-mile radius around your shop.

That's the only people that are going to come to you, or people that are just buying the basics because you're doing it.

But if you make a rad, rad, rad modular concrete kitchen with these concrete doors, you're the only person doing it.

Now people all over are going to seek you out that want that, and you're the person doing it.

Or you've set a bar for yourself that even if that's not what they want, you've set a quality bar for yourself so when they do come to you, there's no question of where you end up.

I guess it's like anything else we look at, right?

I was just talking to Brandon this morning about vehicles, right?

And price points and like where are you going?

This one versus that one.

And in the same regard, when you just walk onto a car lot, you know just instantly what's in, what into the spectrum and what you're trying to achieve.

So if you want, if that's what you're looking to achieve is to be and touch into the clientele based on what you really aspire to, both in your personal life, meaning again, your business profitability life, you know so forth and so on, then you just have to do it and do it and don't talk about doing it.

Do it.

And it works.

It really does work.

It's scary.

We've talked about it a million times.

It's scary.

We can tell you how many stories all three of us, all four of us actually, how many stories, you know, and, you know, whatever, we faced it and we were afraid of it and went, oh, wow.

Wow.

It works or it doesn't.

I mean, I'm not going to say that it always works because there's been several times over the last 22 years, I've almost gone out of business.

And it had nothing to do with not being focused on quality, not being focused on design.

It had to do with economic conditions.

So I get there's people closing right now.

The economy has been tough.

We talked about this probably six months ago of how tough the economy is.

And it's not just concrete.

It's all the trades, framers, everybody.

Everybody is struggling right now.

And I get it.

But it's all cyclical.

The good times don't last forever.

The bad times don't last forever.

And so I'd say the thing is if you can hang on, just hang on a little longer.

Yeah, yeah.

And make it through.

This won't last forever and it's gonna pick back up again.

And then when the sun is shining, you make hay while the sun is shining.

You make as much as you can.

You put money away for a rainy day.

And then when the market goes back down again, which inevitably it will, maybe you're positioned at a place to where it's not as painful as it was last time.

Yeah.

And I think the last thing I'll say on that is that I think I've made this mistake in the past.

And you see like, I'm not sure what the vernacular is over in America, but over here we feel like a trades person is like a plumber, electrician, a joiner, a cabinet maker.

We call them a tradesman.

And I think with Concrete, we all make the mistake that, you know, we undervalue the skill, knowledge and time it requires to do this.

And I say to people now, anybody I speak to say, you're not a tradesman in Concrete, you're a craftsman.

It's a completely different ball game and a completely different field.

You know, and what I'm trying to say is, you've spoken about what you charge per hour before.

A lot of people get stuck in this mindset, oh, you know, a tradesman or electrician is charging, you know, $300 a day.

Therefore, you know, I couldn't be higher than that, because that's the high end of a trade wage.

But this is entirely different.

You know, we very much are craftsmen.

You know, people use the word artisan.

It's not a word I'm a fan of.

I think it's overused, but we are craftsmen at what we do.

You know, you need to value your knowledge and the time that you're putting in to what you're making, because let's be honest, and I said this to a customer recently, when he said it was too expensive.

And I said, that's not a problem, you know, that's fine.

We're not for you.

But I said, how many people can do this?

And he's like, well, you know, I found you and I've struggled to find really anybody else.

A few other people, I was like, well, you know, we're not a diamond doesn't, we're not a trades person.

You can't find 50 of us in the same, you know, Google search, you know, we're very rare for a reason.

And that's why we charge what we charge, because what we do is, you know, it's hard, it's difficult.

You need a lot of knowledge.

So if anybody's listens to this, especially when they're starting out, value what you are bringing to the table as a craftsman, not as a trades person, you know, and then from there, as you said, base things on design.

Yeah, well, the thing you bring up to about people comparing themselves to trades people is people tend to remember the price of a trades person 20 years ago.

You know, 20 years ago, a welder was 85 an hour, 20 years ago, because I used to sub out welding to welders and it was 85 an hour.

That same welder today is going to be 200 an hour.

I had an electrician come do some stuff at my shop.

There's a weird echo going on now.

Oh no, it's gone.

So an electrician come do some stuff at my shop and he billed me and I got the bill and it was hours plus materials.

It was 115 hour.

And this was a young guy, same company I've always used, but a young guy that came out, he's not the electrician that owns the company, he's just an employee there.

And they're building 115 hour to essentially wire some wires together and whatever.

It's not like what we're doing where you have to have a ton of skill set and knowledge and everything to get into it.

So, yeah, I mean, a printist electrician, a low level electrician, they're building at 150 an hour, plus materials which they like quadruple the cost of those.

Oh, three switches, that's going to be $100.

I'm like, dude, I can go buy those for six bucks right now.

But it doesn't matter.

That's how they make their money.

But I think if, even if you do view yourself as a tradesman at today's tradesman's prices, I think you'd be doing okay if you're like, yeah, 150 an hour.

You're doing good.

Yeah, you're doing well.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, because the pushback that Jon and I have heard, and we've had some people in the podcast at this viewpoint, you know, what's your time worth?

20 bucks an hour.

Really?

Your time is worth 20 bucks.

I mean, we legit had a guy in this podcast that viewed his time at $20 an hour.

And I was saying, man, to run a business, to be the business owner with the shop and the insurance and everything goes into it.

The cost of goods sold and taxes, $3.25 an hour is where I need to be just to essentially break even.

That's my operational expenses.

If I was at $20 an hour, I'd be at a business week one.

You know, so you have to value yourself appropriately, depending on where you are.

But, you know, yeah, if you're at tradesman prices in 2024, with inflation, everything else is gone, you're going to be doing okay if you're at that price.

But yeah, you shouldn't you shouldn't view yourself as a tradesman because you're not a tradesman.

You're right.

There's very few people in the world.

I mean, in the world, there's probably less than 200.

In the world, they do what we do, maybe 300.

But in the world, it's a very, very small market segment.

And so it's very specialized.

How many electricians are in the world?

Tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands electricians.

There's a few.

Probably 300 concrete guys doing this.

Yeah.

And like you said, they follow the system, everything they're doing.

I've always hated people when they get into this.

If I was a builder, I wouldn't build an extension on a home.

Get towards the very end and go, right, smash it down and start again.

Whereas concrete, you know, concrete is like, oh shit, right?

The very last hurdle, something goes wrong.

Let's do the whole thing from the beginning.

Yeah.

To remind people that it's constantly on that kind of knife edge of, I might have to remake this either because of a drop it.

I know you don't like installations anymore, Brandon, but whatever may happen, you've got to do the whole thing from the beginning again.

Whereas tradespeople, builders, that's very, very rare for them to do that.

It's just important for people to get into this, to understand that and reframe their mind because they come from, all of us often come in this industry from a working class or blue-collar background.

Ultimately, how we value things and how we value money, it's not the same as the people that we want to sell and how they value money because to us, it's a necessity we needed to live whereas people with true money, it's just a means to an end.

It's to get them what they want, not what they need.

It's just got to completely retrain how you think about things.

I say now that if I give a price of something, if that price doesn't scare me or I'm not questioning that price, it's not enough.

Yeah.

Well, in my opinion, once you develop your pricing based on your history, if you know these are my costs, these are my expenses and this is where I need to be, and you say, you do the math and you say, I think it's going to take me 30 hours, but it never takes me what I think it's going to take.

So let me add another 20% to that.

So it's going to take me 36 hours to do this at my hourly rate.

I'm going to have these materials in it.

Here's my price and you give them the price.

Let's say that's $10,000.

$10,000.

And you're like, oh, hey, I can do seven.

Ten's my price.

If anything changes, give me a call.

You're confident that at 10,000, it's worth your time.

If you went to seven, you'd lose money.

You know you'd lose money because you've done the math.

And once you get a confidence in your pricing and you get a handle on your numbers and you give somebody a price, my prices are non-negotiable, non-negotiable.

When I give somebody a price, that's the price.

And if they want to do the project, here's the price.

And if they want to come in lower, I'm sorry, I can't do it for that.

If anything changes, please let me know.

But if you have that mindset, then when you do something, hopefully it goes as planned.

As you say, a lot of times it doesn't, and then you're going to lose money on the project.

And that's just part of it.

And you take it on the chin and you say, this is a lesson.

I'm going to chalk this up to the cost of tuition.

As my wife likes to say, it's the cost of tuition.

When things go sideways and you have to redo it and you lost money on a project, that's a lesson learned.

But hopefully as time goes on, that happens less and less and less.

And then when you charge the price you need to charge, you actually turn a profit and you put money in your bank account instead of taking money out of your bank account.

That's the goal.

Well, guys and gals, we've gone quite a long time.

Let's see your workshop real quick you have coming up.

You want to talk about that?

I'll actually do that.

So our demo day is coming up on Monday, the 18th of November.

This is something that we are asking people to RSVP for.

So if you're interested, you do need to message us.

There's about 15 people or 16 people on a capita, about 20 because it's just, yeah, it gets too many otherwise.

Yeah.

So you need to get your name down.

But yeah, we're going to showcase the incredible versatility of PureDirect Pro RadMix and our Custom Blend Cement.

Which is a sand and cement blend that we put together to work with RadMix.

Yeah.

And then we'll be covering topics such as how RadMix saves you time and money.

Because as we've covered on this podcast, it's really important to know what you're investing in and how that can pay dividends.

And then we'll cover different casting techniques, ceiling and also the launch of the new 2K Fusion Sealer.

Yes.

So that'll be very exciting to launch that and get some people trying that out and some feedback on that.

Gabriel's been testing that for Jon.

No, I'm not testing it yet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just want to make a note that I named it Grizzly Shield, but Jon named it Fusion.

So you can blame that on Jon.

Grizzly Shield.

Way better name.

Way better name.

I like Fusion.

What did Fusion come from, Jon?

Fusion came from Blue Concrete days.

They used to call their bag Mesh Fusion.

It's stuck in Jon's head.

Deep down in the archives.

No, that's not what it has to do.

Yeah, that's where it came from.

Again, everything that I think about is based on what it does.

I know what the chemistry is doing.

I know why you're using the heat.

So technically, what's happening, and I put the information out there, and I'll stop right now.

So what's really happening?

I call it thermocoupling X21 by 5, dash X.

Right, right, right.

At a certain temperature, it creates a ceramic-like effect that fuses everything together.

So hence, fusion.

I wanted to call it IC2.

There you go.

Yeah, before we got the cast and tenings we'll be covering are spraying, SCC obviously, I know you don't like spraying, but some people do want to still spray, obviously handpack and then troweling if we have time.

So all the broad range of things will be covered and how to do all the same things in one mix, just adjust in the water or the plasters as slightly.

So yes, it'd be a good time to ask many questions on the day about the mix itself.

And obviously what you're thinking to do with it.

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty much for anyone who's been thinking about it, anyone who's just even been using it or recently started using it, it's a good time to get a few more pointers and see in person.

Sometimes when we offer advice, it's really hard to relay the advice and the right words where the other person will interpret.

Yeah.

So obviously, seeing techniques and things in person will really make a difference, I think.

And that's our way of supporting our existing customers and any potential customers.

There's no obligation you have to buy Radmix if you come in.

Ultimately, anyone's welcome no matter what affiliation, tribe, politics you follow.

Yeah, everyone's welcome.

But yeah, make sure you get in contact with us and RSVP.

Monday, the 18th of November.

And how do they get in contact with you?

Because you guys don't have a website.

Hold on, Jon, they don't have a website yet.

How do they get in contact?

What do they do?

Ah, you can hit us up on Instagram and Facebook at Designer Concrete Supplies and our website will be launching in the next few weeks.

So there'll be some exciting things coming up with the website launch.

So yeah, keep your eyes peeled and make sure you're following us on Instagram and Facebook because all our updates will always be on there.

So that's the best way of keeping up to date with everything.

Awesome.

What do you got, Jon?

Well, I was going to say, why don't you just invite any competitor over there carrying other products?

You said it was open to everybody.

Well, maybe they'll learn something.

Yeah, I'll get the books out and we'll have, you know, two rounds, ding, ding.

Yeah, show them how to do it right.

Show them how to do it right.

Well, you know what?

But in all seriousness, though, although I'm joking, you know what I mean?

It may open up some eyes anyway and say, you know, listen, we don't have to be enemies.

So how do we find a way of working together?

Yeah.

Who knows?

I agree.

So I'm gonna do the workshop I have coming up, the Ramcrete Workshop, November 16th and 17th, the weekend before Gabriel's class.

November 16th and 17th, go to concretedesignschool.com.

This is a rammed earth aesthetic workshop using UHPC.

So we're gonna do a plinth, an art plinth for these three-dimensional models I have.

It's gonna be here in the studio.

That's what we're gonna be making.

concretedesignschool.com.

Come learn how to do Ramcrete.

And yeah, anything else Jon, before we wrap this up?

No, that's it, man.

No, great talking to you guys.

I mean, I talked to you on the phone, but it's great having you on the podcast.

It's been a while.

So glad things are going well.

Thank you very much.

Nice to speak to you both again.

Absolutely.

All right, guys.

Well, Jon, adios.

Adios.

Gabriel and Ashlea, adios.

Au revoir.

Goodbye.