How to Navigate the World of Ceramic Coatings

Join BG and Jon on the Concrete Podcast as they air their grievances against polymer - the material that's caused more trouble than a rebellious teenager. From scandalous affairs with their wives to disrespectful encounters with their beloved pets, polymer has left a sour taste in their mouths, quite literally, as it's even been known to desecrate breakfast cereals. But fear not, dear listeners, for Jon is here to guide you through the world of ceramic coatings. Learn which ones to embrace with open arms and which ones to avoid like the plague. Tune in for all this and more on this week's episode of the Concrete Podcast!




Hello, Jon Schuler.

Brandon Gore.

What a what a week, What a week it's been, huh?

It's always fun week, dude.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, well, some weeks more fun than others.

This has been a definitely more entertaining week for.


Fun or frustrating, I guess.

Not frustrating for me, was it?


Frustrating for you?

You know what?

Some of it does get frustrating.

Nah, you can't let it get to you.

You can't let it get to you.

No, it it just gets frustrating, that's all.

Yeah, you feel like you're pulling teeth.

You feel like you're pulling teeth.

And but anyway, I mean, I could go on about that, but I'm not going to.


For anybody listening that isn't aware of of what we're you know referencing is this week there was a post on social media and somebody that posted they liked the podcast and asked about Polymer and why why we don't like Polymer and that sparked this huge massive discussion and it just.


Went almost.


It just went in all directions.

You know, it's it's it's pretty pretty crazy.

But that being said, do you just want to address really quickly, Jon, just to make it crystal clear what our stance is on this subject?

Well, we said it so many times, you know, in the history of me designing materials, obviously and still do work with lots of polymers, liquid powder, etcetera.


And there's pros and cons to it.

It just is what it is.

But most of this became just, you know, let's say very combative when Kodiak Pro came out as a mixed design.

That's not let's like we didn't put the stake in the ground that say, hey, we're gonna be another ad mixed with another powder polymer that maybe we found a better polymer than somebody else.


No, we just, we took it out and instead we came up with very innovative approaches so that the polymer's not needed with, you know, dealing more with, you know, often referred to, you know, me as, you know, enhancing the characteristics of hydration or you know, hydration modifiers.


I came up with a, you know, very, very novel approaches.

It's referred to as self desiccation, I mean meaning the moisture leaves the concrete so fast that there's not enough moisture for cement hydration.

And that's often what the polymers are used for, at least what we're talking about referred to as curing polymers.


And anyway, we walked away from all of that.

Not because we don't like them for what they do in the positive sense speak.

For yourself.

Polymer slept to my wife.

Yeah, I hate Polymer.

One of these days I'm going to catch Polymer.

I know it kicked my dog.


Yeah, it It peed in my Cheerios when I wasn't looking.

One time I turned around and there was Polymer pissing on my Cheerios.

I said, oh, you Polymer.

One of these days, yeah.

We took them out specifically for, let's say, all the bad things they do, they it's undeniable.


They're all built on surfactant technologies.

And again, I won't get into all that, just plain and simple.

I also heard.

Bleaches out color.

I also heard there's no.

Denying that, yeah.

That polymer, the Epstein list, continues to come out, and polymer was one of the names on the list.


He was on that island waiting.

Dude, he was on the list.

I yeah, It's just one of the things, you know, the more I learned about polymer, the less I like polymer.

When he was on the Epstein list, I said that's it, no more.

Just say through the years there's eye opening experience we did in house testing when I was at Blue and Buddy Rhodes, right.


And found out we used to think, hey, polymers enhance colours.

And what we found out is no, they actually bleached out the colours.

But you know, but whatever, you know, we dealt with that in other ways and you know, the air, there's no way around it.

So you know, we talked about de foaming technologies, a whole, you know, putting, putting poison in your coffee but trying to make sure you antidote before you drink it knowing for what's there.


Anyway, my point being to all that and I'll still continue to say if you practice good curing practices, if you you know have a mix that's designed around still anti self desiccation, good curing techniques, etc, then polymers legitimately are not needed.


And with us saying that that's what gets everything.

But he's so angry.

I just think cuz we came at this now at a very different approach.

You know, we're not the same cookies with the same nuts in them.


We came at it totally different.

And I honestly, just truly believe that's upsets people.

That's all.

Well, the way it's been for a long time is these mix designs, if you talk to the the manufacturers or the repackagers, the resellers, whoever, if you talk to them and you say, well, how does yours compare to that one, They always say, well, they're all the same.


Yeah, they're same.

Find the one you like and you know and me and and in all honesty, they're telling the truth.

They are all the same.

And so when they say that I had a friend went to the world of concrete this year and he was walking around and he talked to some manufacturers or distributors and asked them about how does it compare, you know, to that guy, how does it compare.


And that was the answer he got.

And actually I said, hey, do me a favor, just ask him how they how, how it compares to Kodiak Pro.

I just want to know what they say.

And they'd all say, he said.

They're all very nice, they.

All said, they all said.

Well, you know, they essentially all create the same thing, is what he was being told by people.


They all essentially create the same thing.

But the point is that has been very true.

All these mixes have been very, very similar and you you have a different approach to it and we came about for approaches.

This is really the first time in a long time that there's been an innovative product that hit the market that isn't the same.


It's outside of the circle, the circle of trust.

You know, it's outside that circle of everybody doing the same thing, selling the same thing, just calling it something different and and now it's an outlier outside of there.

And so now when we say, hey guys, there's there's a different thing over here.

Legitimately different it kind of.


Rocks the boat, you know.

Hydration modification going on.

I mean there's a lot of cool things in these mixes.

Not that I'm here to pump these mixes, but I also want to make it very clear we're not anti.

I am not, and neither are you.

I am not.

I've never put a stake in the sand.


In fact, I tell people under certain circumstances where a polymer can actually be beneficial, even in these materials, they truly can be.

Except now you're gonna use a very, very minimal amount, as this goes back to my pharmacy days.


Use an amount that doesn't give you the side effects, right?

And then you can get an enhancement in what you're trying to achieve without necessarily dragging on the luggage that we have hopefully left behind, which is always the same thing.


It's air.

It's like I said the bleaching out of the color.

I actually laughed one day.

I mean recently where a person you know sent me like who are you to tell me this And he sends me this picture of a of a vanity that he did which had an enhancing sealer on it and I wrote him back and I'm like that's that's not the mix in here.


That's A and again I I'm not the debate the sealer whatever man.


But that's not our approach and it will not be my approach, The approach for me, which by the way, I think you know I'm actually doing some testing right now in the vinegar which is getting us off track.


But the approach to me continues to be, can we take this entity that we call concrete and make it so durable that the least amount of sealing technology is needed that it can be easily maintained for a longevity of a period of time.


And you know, so it's a symbiotic relationship between all the materials instead of just like boom and one of those things that continue to be a problem in all those years.

Or excuse me, I mean a pro and a con, but the cons to me outweighed the pros when I started going, wait a minute, there's so many other ways to skin this cat that doesn't bring this luggage along.


So I'm not going to do it.

And that in of itself.

I just think, I wouldn't say upset some people, but it's pretty undeniable that when when anybody comes out with information that unequivocally disproves someone else's information that they have relied on for so long, I think until they find a way of changing the way they think, it's just very uncomfortable.


Even more uncomfortable if you happen to be maybe perceived as a leader in the industry or an educator of some sort and and then, you know, maybe again, even more uncomfortable if now you're being left behind.

Not because you're a bad person or because you're not intelligent.


It's just that you're not traveling this path.

You know, you're blinders are still on, you're still focused on this one path.

And other people have, you know, we use the word innovative, but you know we could say a different we've just gone a different way to avoid to the best of our ability And and I'm just going to keep chatting.


That's why I'm seeing people now casting, you know, 364848 inch verticals, 3/4 of an inch thick, clean and crisp and and then you compare that and again I'm not down grading it, but you compare that to some of the things that other people are showing that is still it's it's full of air and maybe that is what they're trying to achieve and that's OK.


But I will say then I get, well I could do that.

No, you can't just stop it.

I mean again, I guess what I'm saying is this goes back to ego and pride.

Just admit it.

It is what it is.

And so we've just taken a different path and that path seems to be riling people up a little bit and it's continued it.


It is what it is even in the subject we're actually going to talk.

About today, Well, as far as this last week goes, I had a conversation with Brandon Browning.

I love Brandon, BBB, dude, BB.


So I had a conversation with Brandon Browning.


He called me up and he was kind of, you know, giving me his opinion on everything and telling me that he thinks that we shouldn't respond and we shouldn't.

And, you know, essentially.


All that kind of stuff.

And you know, and he's right.

He's like people that like Polymer, like Polymer, and people don't like Polymer.


And I'm like, dude, I'm not trying to change anybody's minds.

I'm just trying to set the record straight on our viewpoint on this.

And here's what I likened it to him as because he was essentially, you know, and I was telling him, hey, that's your opinion.

I get it.

That's your opinion.

But I I told him years ago, and he remembers this.


Years ago there was a person that was essentially like trying to poison the well about me spreading rumors about me talking negatively about me and and I just chose to ignore it.

I made the conscience.

Because that's when I actually started liking.



That's when I made the conscious decision.


I just said I'm just I'm going to let this fire burn itself out.

The best response is no response.

And I got off social media and I just blocked the parties involved and I just said as soon at some point they'll get tired of doing her little petty thing they're doing and this will just stop.

But it didn't stop because more people come into the industry and and whispers just keep going and it's just like this slow burning fire that just creeps around because there's new fuel, new people and they're entering the industry and you know, people that hold whatever their their negative views will just keep doing what they're doing anyways.


So I chose to not address any of it.

I chose not to respond to any of it.

And and years go by and it doesn't stop.

And we, me and you actually did an interview with somebody a long time ago on the podcast.

But part of the part of that conversation we had that I didn't put into the podcast because that that interview went for like 3 1/2 hours and I had to cut out a good chunk of it.


But something that he said was, you know, you didn't ever defend yourself.

So I assumed it was all true.


That was an interesting perspective.

But I think that is human psychology.

I think if somebody says something and in this case we're talking polymer.

But if somebody makes statements and those statements aren't challenged and and you know from our point of view and not saying our point of view is the right way or the wrong way or the only way.


But from our point of view those things are not addressed, then the populate the general population is just watching this not engaging but just watching things they're probably telling they're probably telling the truth.

And these guys, you know, they they didn't respond.

And So what I told Brandon Browning was, bro, I'm a bad guy either way in some people's minds, in some people's stories, I'm the bad guy.


I'm the bad guy.

If I respond, oh, Brandon's just arguing with people again, you know, and I'm the bad guy.

If I don't say anything, I'm like, oh, must be true.

He didn't say anything.

So I said, if I'm gonna be the bad guy, I might as well be the bad guy.

That at least sets the record straight.

And he's like, no, I get that.

And I'm like, OK, so now you understand where I'm coming from.


And honestly, it didn't even that whole discussion.

I never got worked up about it.

I was just actually, I had surgery.

The funny thing was I had surgery that morning or exploratory, you know, diagnosis thing.

I'd go in and be put under.

It was a whole thing bro.

I had to get an IV.

I'm scared to death of needles.


I got.

I'm tattooed head to toe.

I can't stand needles.

And this nurse actually took two nurses 4 attempts to get an IV started.

I was sweating bullets.

But anyways, but the anesthesia was awesome.

But anyways, I come out of surgery.

I'm at home just laying on the couch, hop on Facebook on my phone and just start, you know, responding.


But that was that was what I told Brenda Browning.

But the other part of this conversation, Jon, as far as it relates to Polymer is I'm not anti polymer and you're not anti polymer.

Even though Polymer slept to my wife.

I can forgive Polymer, right?

Like my.


Yeah, yeah.


Drank all my beer.

Dude pissed on my Cheerios, but at least it tasted like milk.

I can let it go.

OK, so.

Well, see, I hold.

On hold.

Hold on.

Before you give me your different take, 'cause I want to tell you what I told Brandon Browning.

And so I was talking to Brandon Browning.

And as we know, me and you and a lot of people that know these guys, they like a certain look that Polymer creates.


And so they're using Kodiak Pro, but they're blending it with other products that can contain polymers.

So they get this crackling effect.

That's, that's the way they describe it, like a crackling.

And they like that surface crackling effect that they don't get with straight Kodiak Pro.


Consolidated too well.

Yeah, exactly.


And so you know, I mean essentially Polymer's creating an issue, but they like the issue, they like the aesthetic of the issue, right.

And so I, I, I told Brandon like bro, if you want polymer, Jon developed those products that you guys are using that you blend with Kodiak Pro.


He was the original Chems that developed those things.

We can get you the polymer if you want the polymer and we're happy to sell it to you and we're I'm happy to sell it to anybody that wants to use polymer if for whatever reason what you do.

And so I told Brandon, what you do in your own shop, the products you use, that's your business.

It's none of my business, right.


You can use whatever you want to use.

You don't have to support us.

You don't have to buy Kodiak.

We're still friends.

Like, I just want you to feel comfortable.

If you like some other sealer, some other mix, what It doesn't matter to me and if.

Not sealer.

Yeah, that matters.

It doesn't matter to me.


But but I told him, dude, if you 'cause he he's like, dude, I love Kodiak.

I just like the crackling, the aesthetic that we get with the polymer.

I said fine, fine, they can't get it.

Yeah, we, me and Jon will get polymer for for anybody that wants it, that wants to add it to their mix.


OK, if you want that aesthetic, you're not doing it for the for performance because it doesn't need it for performance.

But if you want it for the look that it gives you, great.

Absolutely fine.

And we're totally fine with that.

So anyways, I just.

Well, so I'm going to say so the post that I'll get stuck on is just that this is what it continues to be for me.


And maybe again this is a Jon Schuler thing as you very well know, everybody said like don't ask Jon because he won't tell you yes or no.

You'll get a lot more answer than what you want.

What What sticks in my craw just happens to be that that certain people even though they're selling the product.


And I think that's wonderful, but they only tell the story from 1 angle.

Like here's the benefits.


So are there any drawbacks?


Only benefits.

Oh, OK And then you know someone will send in because I get pictures of them too.


Hey, Jon.

I sent so and so tech support.

Hey, do you know what this is?


I know exactly what this is.

Change this around.

Da da, da, da, da boom.

Hey, yeah.

Thank you very much.

But my point is just tell the whole story.

People are still going to make their decision.

I'm just a believer, like the way I grew up, I didn't grow up in a family that said don't do drugs.


Just say no, hell no.

We were smoking and snorting, right?

You make your decision.

Just a dash of heroin, right?

Just a dash, right?


Can I get more?


I mean, but make an informed choice.


Because even with, I'm going to, you know, kind of parrot some of the information out.

You know, we teach you all the whys and I think that's fantastic.

OK, then what are the downsides?


No, no, seriously.

I mean, what's the pros and the cons?



Well, I mean, so can it?

Does it pump in air?

No, Crickets.

I mean, I get it.

I get it.

We all have, you know.

Well, can I change my curing practices to avoid these issues?


You know, I don't know.


So I'm going to just say that's, that's what leads me down a path is just simply say like come on you guys, I, I you just, you sell your products.

People are going to make a decision just to help all of us make an informed decision.

But I'm also taking that stand because by us offering the informed decision, you know, we let's say with that group of individuals, we kind of get chastised as the bad guys, you know, like the, I don't know, polymer Nazis or something.


And and that's not it at all.

No, not.

It at all, dude.

Polymer, I never will be.

Polymer's great for a lot of products, just not the products we're making for our use.

That that is.

And I've.

I've said that like, literally not one post.

I said it like 20 times.

Like, no, no, no.

I am not against Polymer in any way.


I used it for longer than most people have been in business.

That is a fact.

And here here's something I want to address too.

About that Jon 'cause I taught a class.

I taught a class this last week in the Fundamentals class and but the way we released the podcast, I we recorded that podcast before the workshop.


But because I had to get ready for the workshop and then I had to go do the surgery on Monday, I didn't get to edit it and post it until after.

So it seems a little bit disjointed.

Because if you listen to podcast earlier this week, it seems like I'm getting ready to workshop now.

That already happened.

It happened over the weekend, but we cast a coffee table, which is beautiful.


I'm sitting here right now looking at it.

It is phenomenal, phenomenal.

So nice the the attendees did a great job on it but but here's a little story that I told them and I think it's I think it's very true or or very relevant to the conversation was for years for 15 plus years I used polymer mix.


So whether it was liquid polymer for a lot of years and then you know when you came around and you joined Blue and then developed the products for Buddy Rhodes and you guys moved to powdered polymer because it was less problematic than liquid, it's.

Still, it's still.


Yeah, but still problematic, but less less.


OK, great.

You know, it's like light beer versus, you know, whatever.

It's still still not healthy for you.

Maybe a little bit, maybe a little bit, but it's still, you know, it's the lesser of two evils.

I use that for a lot of years, but I just assumed this is as good as it got.


This is the material.

And you make all these adjustments and you innovate processes like injection molding concrete, injection casting concrete that's something I did to to try to mitigate the air and the all the runny fissures that happen from polymer.


I can look at a piece and tell you there's polymer mix just by like these runny fissure lines or not the edge and you can see it.

So I did all these things and I bought all this equipment and I developed these processes and I build these complex forms and I do all these things because I assumed that was as good as it got.


That's the material and that.

Was necessary, so it.

Was necessary.

Evil you had to work around.

Well, no, no.

But it's not even that, Jon.

So here's a story I told them.

And I've told the story before, but when I was a kid and I was in first grade, I'd go to school and my teacher would write nasty notes home to my mom and say I was a horrible student, that I didn't pay attention, blah blah, blah, blah.


My mom took me to the eye doctor.

Turns out I couldn't see, so I got classes.

I go back to school.

I'm a model student.

I can now see the board, you know, I know what's going on.

But my point is up from the age of 0 until six, I didn't even know there was anything else as far as vision goes.


I assumed everybody saw the way I saw.

Why would I think differently?

That's been my only experience in life is this.

And I assume that you see the same that I see and I just assume that's the board.

I mean, I can't see anything, you know, it's just all blurred, but whatever.

And it wasn't until I went to the eye doctor and I had classes that I had a new perspective, a fresh perspective, and I could see a totally different reality.


And so with Mix, it was the same thing.

So it wasn't even that I was, like working around this necessary evil.

No, it was like I was five years old and hadn't gone to the eye doctor yet, right?

That's all that I knew.

That was my reality.

And this is the mix, this is the product.

And it wasn't until this comes along, Kodiak Pro and I don't have those problems anymore that it's like I got glasses and I can see clearly and I have a fresh perspective.


And that's why I was telling the attendees is, you know, you guys are coming along at a really great time in the industry because, you know, we we cast this coffee table, demoulded it and they're like, cool.

I'm like, no, huh, cool.

Like, are you like this is insane.


This thing is perfect.

It's beautiful.

It is absolutely incredible and it's 100% a result of the innovation in these mixes.

But it's all about having a perspective.

And so when I hear from people, oh, you know, I'm, I'm happy with my mix.


I'm sure you think you are.

I thought I was because I didn't see the other side of the coin.

I didn't know what the other side was.

I didn't have a frame of reference.

And it's only when you have that, that you know.

And so you know, as far as this polymer, no polymer issue goes or this debate or discussion or whatever is, I would encourage you, if you haven't tried this style of mix, this generation of mix, this technology, contact Joe Bates, Get a few bags, get some TBP, follow the directions, don't wing it, don't go throw in a ton of Csas in there.


You know, somebody commented like, oh, it curled on me.

And then you're like, oh, I'd put a ton of Csas on a ton of accelerator.

Well, we don't tell you to do that.

Don't do those.


Yeah, yeah, you can't do that.

Well, you can, but you.

Anyway, but don't blame the mix if if you put a bunch of stuff into it to do whatever you're trying to do, like make it go off in 30 minutes if it curls, don't be like it's the mix problem.


Not bro.

It's a.

You put too much CSA and too much accelerator in a problem.

That's the problem.

Yeah, you, you know, maybe some other things need to be looked at, you know, to compensate kind of thing.

But what I'm saying is call Joe, get the mix, get the right plasticizer, the best plasticizer and follow the directions, don't deviate, follow the directions and see for yourself and have a frame of reference.


At that point you can make an informed decision and do what you want.

We can want to say we've been talking, we've been talking about this for a long.

Time, Jon.

I know 20.

The other informed decision is just take a minute and look and see what people are making, you know?

And if and I see this is where I always, I don't know, I crack up sometimes because it seems like when I get involved in these discussions on there, it's just it's crickets.


Like even the people I try to tag like literally say, hey can you not tag me, I tag you because.

I tag you because you always have something to say.

So yeah, say something.


That's OK.

That's OK, but I really would.


I just want to be engaging, man.

I just want to be engaging.

There's no ill will to anybody not on my hand.

But what this is where pride and egos come in and I'll still continue to say this is where I stand.

My ground is look at the, you know, see what people are casting with this style mix, you know, And if that's something that you're trying to achieve, you know, the clean edges and you know the ability to cast like this and do stuff like the table you just did and and so forth and so on. three-dimensional cast that, you know, you don't spend a lot of time slurring and bug holes.


And because I heard that one, no, I don't.

What's 30 minutes of filling?

That's only the bug holes you see.

It's like.

That's only films.

Then you got to Polish it.

Then when you're sealing it, you see areas you miss, you're like, oh gosh, we have to get out the same.

Podcast again.

I mean, I don't know if you have photos of some of the things and I don't mean this targeted at anybody, but there's some undeniable ways of looking at things.


And again, I'm not saying they're wrong.

And if if what they're achieving is what you're trying to achieve, I get it.

I get it.

And OK, and then maybe like anything else, there's different tools in the toolbox to accomplish the same thing.

So know the materials that work like this, know the materials that work like that.


And then you have a choice as an educated artisan to decide, you know, what the end result, what end expectation, what it is you're trying to achieve.

If you want to achieve something that's airy and if you need and focused on using an enhancing sealer to bring the color out and and do these kind of things, then OK.


And if you want something per what we're, you know, the decision, we, you know, that doesn't need that kind of stuff and holds up to longer durability, even if you scratch it and blah blah blah.

Blah, You know, there's a different choice.

Wrap it up.

Anyway, OK, this is going to go on all day really good, right?


OK, what are we talking about?

What are we talking about?

I mean, we've already ran up the whole damn podcast.

Well, ceramics.

So ceramics are the thing that we continue to get a lot of messages about.

And Martin is getting a lot of messages from people asking.

And you know, I did we we made this coffee table in the workshop, but I did the ceramic code on it today and tomorrow I'll do the the mat spray.


And if you go to the Kodiak Pro website, and go to the last podcast I did, I actually link these two products in the podcast description on the Kodiak Pro page.

I can't do it on Spotify or Apple.

The links don't actually even work.


It's just text.

But if you go to Kodiak Pro and and go to the last podcast, you'll have those links there and you can buy these products.

Another thing I'll tell you, I'm gonna let you run at this cause it's it's out of my pay grade.

Like it's above my pay grade as far as all the different technologies and benefits and downsides and everything.


But here's what I'll tell you is when I first saw this Evo Moe's product from Gion, it's like $94.00 and I thought, man, that's expensive right?

It goes a long way, a long way I've done, I don't know how many pizzas now probably.


I did a huge fireplace.

I did two sinks.

I've done my conference table upstairs, which is really big.

It's like 20 feet long by three feet.

I did this coffee table.

I've done a few other pieces as well in that bottle.

Still halfway full, 3/4 of the way full.


So don't let the price fool you.

It's not like it's 94 bucks for one project.

No, it's 94 bucks for a lot of square footage.

A lot of square footage.


So that's The thing is, even though it seems expensive, it goes a long way.

But I'm going to shut up and I'm going to let you talk about this chemistries and what you're looking for and what you want to steer clear of.




You know and again as we've talked, I mean if this is a huge, huge thing, so I'm going to, you know, probably give the dummy down version of it without going to all of them.

But ceramic is a word used in the car coating industry.


Well, in a lot of industries, you know, non stick pans, not Teflon base, but the other little ceramic coatings and so forth.

So I want to try to concentrate just on silicon dioxide chemistries.

What's the other one?

Silicon carbides and graphenes are kind of like the three main ones that you'll find in car coating industries.


And of those 3, without going into what the carbide does and graphing, I just want to say if, if people are looking to the ceramics as something to add into what they're doing, let's first talk about why.

Why would you do that?


You know and and all I can do is lean back on the car industry and say, well you do it because you want to improve the long term durability of the, let's say let's just say concrete countertop or the vanity or whatever you're doing in a client's home under client's use with the ability that the client can continue to rejuvenate this throughout the lifetime of the product.


And and it takes a lot off our shoulders even from needing to go in there and repair and rejuvenate and sand and reseal.

So that's your number one to accomplish this.

The number one ceramic you want to look for is something with a silicon dioxide.


OK, Sio 2, don't don't go to the carbide, don't go to the graphene.

You just look for the ones with the Sio 2.

That's your number one.

That's the one that has an ability for like a covalent bond.

You know some it let's say for simple terms let's say creates a hard shell slickness to the surface these kind of things right.


So that's the pros the pros is hardening the surface increase slickness easier to clean but I I don't want to snow anybody is they don't necessarily increase just the silicon dioxide doesn't increase stain resistance per SE.


So the next thing you want to look for is a silicon dioxide that's coupled with some kind of repellent, repellent and I would say the number one is a polysilazine.

So look like it's called a fluoropolysilazine and there's a couple of them out there.


We just happen to, I personally prefer based on cost and use and everything is the Gian Moe's that it's really, really a good product but that's what you want to look.

Some of them also have like just a basic saloxane you know and and those again those are OK, I'm not saying they're not but I just want everybody to be aware that when we're talking about these this is where again a much larger pro and con.


So look for something Sio 2's and something with some good repellent technology built in.

Just know that having that combinations means they're most likely they're not gonna be water based they're gonna be a solvent of some sort.


And if you look at all these now, we're going to come into some of the, you know, pros and cons based on whatever sealers.


Because I I kind of want to take away that general idea that some people like, oh, see, we can use them with other sealer with every sealing technology from epoxy to whatever.

And that's not necessarily true per SE.

So let me explain.

When it comes down to these Sio 2 based things, they do create a covalent bond.


So let's call it a chemical bond, right.

But if you look at it, that's also why in the car industry they'll tell you which most of the cars are all with a clear coat Urethanes.

You know, you, you don't want to go through, you know, the power car washes and these kind of things because they degrade them very quickly.


So just saying, if you're using that kind of technology on your countertops or your vanities, just be aware that they're gonna need to be rejuvenated a lot because you're not gonna get the same bonding characteristics that you would get, let's say, with a reactive technology.


So that's something to bear in mind.

I'm not saying you can't do it.

Just bear in mind you're you're going to go on and give the client something that they can continue to wipe their countertops down.

Because anytime they wipe their countertops down, they're going to be degrading their finish over and over and over again.


And that's why I mean, you'll say coincidentally, and I've been on this path for a while, is ICT chemistry with colloidals and so forth complement silicon dioxides.

So now you get a very symbiotic relationship and that's why I did it.


Or that's why I've been following this path for some time, is you can take these and they work together so they don't wear out easily.

So a person can wipe down their countertops and at the same time have things like either the same manufacturer might have some kind of rejuvenating product of their own.


I know Guillen does.

They call it the what Q as in Quick Q2M as in Mary Cure, that's their version.

And I do know some guys that are using, I think it's called Carpro 2 Point O, which again there might be other ones out there that just happens to be ones that we know work very well.


They they really increase slide or let's call it slickness and avoid scratching on countertops.

And I'm again, I'm just going to say first and foremost, it really takes a finish.

And again, we're just basing on sealer right now, it really takes a finish with the ability to increase the lifespan of that.


And to me that's a pro across the board.

Whatever you're doing, just realize one way you go would need far more maintenance, one way you go would not.

And then this comes back to again this might bite us in the butt too Brandon at some point is we're still very much proponents of the concrete being symbiotic with the sealer being symbiotic with the, let's call them the maintenance.


In this case we're talking ceramics.

And if anybody's interested, I'm actually, you know I don't even know what the outcomes going to be.

I'm laughing about that because I've actually gotten some message like Jon, I can't believe you're putting that up there and I'm like why not You know, I mean let's all learn how to the expectations on the ICT Facebook forum.


I've actually taken some.

When I've sealed again, it's maker mix per Maker mix with sealed with protect, ICT protect, using the Guillon as the ceramic and using the Guillon cure.


And as of today, I started a vinegar test because I'm not going to call it a challenge, but somebody did ask, can you put vinegar, you know, under a bottle for days to weeks?

And let's see what happens.

Not because they were questioning ICT is that they were questioning in general concrete countertops and you know, functional use of concrete countertops regardless of what sealing technology you're using.


So I'm actually doing that right now.

I haven't looked again, but I'm, I'm going to try checking probably about every four hours or so and then add a little more material if it dries out.

But the last I looked at was, I don't know, early this morning, I was already at 3 1/2 hours and there was no penetration going on whatsoever.


I'm just now looking at the clock because I'm talking to you.

So that would have been now, what, almost 9 hours ago that I started this.

So I guess I could hit mute real fast and you could talk in them because I'm actually at home right now.

I could walk over and look and see where it's at.


But no, but I plan on showing pictures of all that live moving forward.

Help us all learn the pros and cons, not just of ICT, not just of ceramics, but actually the relationship that comes together with concrete sealer choice and ultimately how to do your ceramics.


So again, just just moving forward and I'm hoping this kind of information helps everybody.

There are other choices out there too.

I know a couple of the guys, Phil Courtney and stuff have looked at some of these called Ballistics.

Just realize those are not ceramics as it turns out.


Those are actually siloxane based chemistries, solvent based siloxane based chemistries.

And again, I'm not going to say those are bad, but you're not going to get the bonding effect, the hardening effect and the scratch resistance.

And again in in I'm going to say my opinion based on use, those would be products that would need to be reapplied by the homeowner as opposed to like the cure, right.


You just pull the trigger like a spray bottle and wipe the countertop down.

To me that's a pretty simple solution for a for a homeowner to maintain countertops.

And I think ultimately this is something we've all talked about for years, man.

What do you do?

What I mean how does a customer take whatever it is you make for them that you put your heart and time and energy into and helps them maintain them in a way that that they're happy with.


And so to me this is a this is looking like and maintains looking like a pretty incredible solution.

I agree, Jon.

I've been waiting for you to shut up so I could unmute.


Is he going to shut up?

Well, I'll tell you what, you talked for a minute.

I'm literally going to walk over there and just look.

Hang on.


I got nothing to say.

Let's see here.

Well, I don't know if I should report this or not, but I'll still take a picture.


I don't care.


Dude, what?

Corrects me up.


Who's the guy that that, like asked you to do the vinegar thing?

Who is that?


Patrick Miller.

OK, but.

Yeah, I won't say his business name again.

He's a great guy.

I love Patrick.


I've known him for years.

It's funny, but here's what I'm going to say is he's because he posted your results and he's like OK, but put vinegar on it for 8 hours.

You're like.

That might be something worth talking.

About Yeah, yeah.

And you're like, bro, nobody's going to do that.

But you're like, fine, I'll do it and then you do it.


And and he didn't respond for a while.

I kept, I kept tagging him just because I thought it was funny.

But but then today he responded back.

He's like, OK now do hydrogen peroxide.

I swear to you.

I swear to you, I'm like, where is this going to end?


Dude, just do pure hydrochloric acid.

I was thinking when he wasn't responding and I was talking personal, I know he just bought a place up in the state of Washington, a little off grid kind of thing.

I know he's moving that direction to be pretty off grid.


And I just took for granted that he'd probably, you know, took off and went back up there instead of being in the Napa area where he is.

Sebastopol, actually.

But no, Patrick's a great guy.

But I'll tell you what now.

Just because we did it.

Holy crap, man, I.

My confidence is growing even more.


I'll get when we're done here I'll literally take an updated picture or really video so people can see I'm going to have to add a little more material because or a little more vinegar because it's you can see it's what I put there is starting to dry out.


But anyway, I'm going to see.

Yeah, so, you know, here we are at going on.

What is that, 9 hours and no man, there's a zippity Doo dah, other than a little wet ring, not even darkening.

There's nothing, there's nothing happening whatsoever.


So that's that's amazing and I know I said this already, I just want to make it clear, this is not the ceramic alone.

This is not the cure alone.

This is not ICT alone.

I truly be believe this is the symbiotic relationship between all of it and how all of us look to increasing total durability for ourselves, you know for our own well-being and our businesses and to get into our clients hands.



I remember, you're right.

This has been going on for a long time.

I remember way back 20, you know, years ago, people were putting Turtle Wax on the surface.

They're putting the silicone car shine stuff, the spray that comes for for your tires to shine them.


People have been putting beeswax.

Pledge, Pledge, plus spray.

Beeswax all that stuff, and it's never none of those.

None of the things worked.

Coconut oil.

Coconut oil, coconut oil's probably the the the best of all those things.

Yep, Yep.

Coconut oil.



Dusty was a big one for coconut oil and it worked great over ICT.

It didn't hurt the ICT and it just created water repellency and it was something people could do to help make the surface hydrophobic.

But, but yeah, these ceramic coatings do that.


And yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm really happy on it.

Well, Jon, let me hit this real quick.

So when you ran to go take a look, I pulled up the website just side of the dates.

But we have 4 workshops scheduled for the remainder of 2024.


I say the remainder, I mean, we're in February, so it's just started.

But we have 4 workshops scheduled and all four of them have had registrations, multiple registrations.

So we are on.

So definitely if one of these strikes your fancy or multiple of them strike your fancy register sooner than later.


So we have a hero's quest, 2 1/2 day hero's quest that's going to be held in Napa, CA that's going to be May 1st through the 3rd and that's at Joe Bates shop in Napa.

And this is going to be an advanced form building class really focused on rubber, fiberglass, epoxy, as well as ramcrete.


We're going to do Ramcrete panel, but the majority of the time is going to be spent on advanced mold making and so this can be a really great class.

And you know, I said in the last podcast we've had numerous people that have been to previous Heroes Quest workshops register for this one because it's completely new information.


You're not looking a.

Bit right, We've got Sean coming.

Sean Albright's gonna be fiberglass.

Yeah, he's gonna be doing this thing.

Really cool techniques, yeah.


So that's that June 20th, I'm sorry, June 21st through the 23rd.

I have a fabric forming Concrete Sink Plus GFRC workshop here in Goddard KS which is Wichita and this is this is my you know my my gold standard class.


I've been doing this one for a long time.

I taught the first class on GFRC and I taught the first class on fabric forming and years ago I blended those into one class and that's what this workshop is.

It's been a few years since I've held one.

I've already had.

Like I said, multiple people register.

So this one's definitely happening.


June 21st and 23rd Fabric forming, Concrete sink plus GFRC Fun class.

The next one is gonna be August 16th or 18th Furniture Design Workshop, Another 2 1/2 day class.

This is an exploratory workshop.

Each attendee is going to design and build their own piece of furniture that they can take home with them.



Those are always cool classes.

Yeah, Now this isn't the Wild West and I'm like, man, I wanna make a conference table.

Nah, bro, that's not we're not doing that.

But it's.

Something we did with chairs, though, that was really.


Oh my God.

I mean I I looked back to the photos of past furniture design workshops and every one of them has been just a ton of fun.


It's just so cool to see what people come up with.

But this is going to be a workshop where each person is going to, we're going to go into the tenants of design, what makes good design, what makes bad design, design considerations and you're going to build your own form and then we're going to cast cure and then on the half day we're going to seal and or at least process, we may not seal, it depends we'll go over ceiling or you can seal whatever and you can take that with you.


So that's going to be the furniture Design workshop August 16th or 18th and then in the fall we have September 28th and 29th, another day and a half fundamentals workshop.

So that's going to be our basics class, that's going to be for people that are interested in concrete that want to get a a good first step into the industry, see if this is a good fit.


So all that we do have a materials credit we're offering.

We're offering a $500 credit on the the Hero's Quest, the Fabric forming and the Furniture design workshop and we're offering a $250 credit on the fundamentals.

And so if you take that credit into account, the cost of these workshops are ridiculously affordable, ridiculously affordable.


Take a look concrete and register for one or multiple classes today.

Anything else, Jon?

No, man, that's it.

I just, I would just lean anybody towards the Facebook pages.

If you're interested, we're going to, as I say, I'm going to stay on top of this whole live stain test thing that I'm doing, so.


Well, now, Patrick Miller's up there, Andy.

Now it's going to be peroxide.

I know, but I guess what I'm saying I'm actually laughing because hey man, you know so wherever we find the failure or you know whatever, when when resistance gives out whatever that means if you want to be there to see it happen you know what I mean.


And and enjoy the conversation and learn you know and and gain real life expectation and what we're doing and you know what?

Let's say you know what we're standing behind and what we're talking about.

You know go to either other of those forum pages and yeah, I'm excited about it man.


It's this is, believe it or not, it's fun to me, even though I realize there's this air of, you know, see, I told you it wouldn't work, you know?

But it's fun to me to to show it.


I'm probably saying that because my confidence keeps growing.

And I'm.

Seeing what's happening well.

I mean, your torture testing sealer in, in my opinion is somebody that sets people's expectations appropriately in unrealistic ways.

I I would never tell anybody to put vinegar underneath a bottle and leave it for 8 hours.


That's ridiculous.

Yeah, it's ridiculous.

And if somebody did that and they said that the the surface failed, I would say no, You put vinegar under a bottle after for eight hours, that's a you problem.

Same as if I put gasoline in my diesel truck.

That's a me problem.

I can't expect it to run on that.


So you know, I I feel that some of these are outside the the realm of reasonable expectations by quite a bit.

But it's still interesting to see because you know, like you said, the the more you do it and the more it performs at a high level, it just builds confidence so you feel more.


Well, it builds confidence and it starts building on.

And this is what's shocking to me And again, whatever, Jon, this these last three years and the direction we're going is building on innovation and products that we and performance that we never, never have seen possible, if that makes sense.


You know what I mean?

And again, I'm not saying that to put a big feather in my cap, just the fact that I just picked up a vinegar bottle that's left wet for the last 9 hours and there's no dark ring I've in the history of me doing that.

I would have told you no freaking way.


And if anybody does it, they're a fool.

That's their problem.

Don't get concrete countertops, you know what I mean?

Regardless of what sealer, I don't care.

That's a no no.

And now it's not telling me that it's not a no, no.

What it's telling me is we are moving into territories that's never been seen before.


Yeah, and that's amazing.

That really is amazing.

I I do want to say because Phil Courtney has come up with his own ICT protocol that he likes and you were talking about it a week or two ago, that you're gonna test it and kinda see how you how you liked it.

I've done my own version of it.


I did it on this coffee table.

And what I did, Jon, is I did 22 to ones, two parts water, one part protect.

I did 22 to ones.

And when I do those, it's Torch apply the sealer with the roller, leave a super thin film with the roller, just roll it out, leave it nice, let it dry, torch it again and then vinegar wipe.


I let that dry and then torch roll, torch it again, vinegar wipe, torch roll.

So anyways that's the process that's that's the thing.

But I did 22 to ones and then I did 21 to ones.

One part water, one part protect, and when I did the one to ones so the first one to one was the 3rd, the third application and I could see a little bit of darkening in spots but it was pretty well locked up right on the the 4th coat which is the second one to one.


At that point it was completely locked up 0 darkening when I did the vinegar wipe.

When I wiped the vinegar the vinegar just sat on the surface.

It didn't darken anywhere, anything.

And and then I did 200% coats over the top of that but.


So it's a total of 6 coats, I'm telling you.

Another thing that's always surprising to me is when you say 06 coats, it must have taken so long, bro, it didn't take that long at all.

It took an hour total from start to finish because the torch, I'm not torching the dry, I'm letting it dry on its own.


But it's a thin layer, so it dries fast and then the torch chases.

The vapor keeps the piece warm.

It's not hot.

It's, you know when I touch it, it's probably 90°, keeps it warm, chases the vapor and then you're on to the next one and it just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

So I did 66 coats in an hour and I was done, ceiling was done.


It's beautiful and but I liked.

I liked Phil Courtney's method of more diluted to work up to resistance to to.

Full walk out.

I need to do it too.

What what I really like about his method is and I think I said this before is it, it follows along the path that we're trying to achieve and and what are we trying to achieve seal the concrete.


Well, no, not really.

I mean yes, ultimately but no not really.

What we are doing with this technology is forcing a chemical transition of the concrete itself.

We're trying to use chemistry and physically and chemically alter that into a glass like substrate and and that continues also to be a big difference between conventional sealing technologies.


I guess you know again we're not, we're not trying to put a coat on here.

I'm not trying to make the in performance solely based on how good that film of whatever plastic or whatever it is, How good is that film.

No, I mean this is the idea of the heat and etcetera.


I mean we are chemically transitioning the concrete which goes again hand in hand with what we just talked about the ceramics, you know ceramics, although if anybody wants to Google and look up they'll all talk about it from a you know, hardened shell and etcetera.

But that's that's not in this case.


I mean in this case we're taking a technology and literally finding a way to couple chemical reactions to create a symbiotic relationship between ceramic based chemistries and colloidal chemistries.

So which again continues to transition the the concrete to to an overall durability rather than you know a sealer durability.


Dude, every time you say symbiotic relationship, I hear the Circle of Life song from The Lion King.

And I think about that like it's full circle.

It's all part of the same environment.

Everything's working together, not working against each other.

Yeah, the circle.


Of like.

Holding up Simba, you know, above my head.



Anyways, all right Jon, I got to get to work.

OK buddy.

Me too.

I'm headed to the shop.

Now don't say you two.


Don't try to.

Don't try to copy me if I say I got to get to work.


Don't you say you got to get this is?

Where you can you got to compare scars.

Yeah, this is like, hey, Jon, I got to go.

Yeah, yeah, I got to go too.

No, you don't.

No, you don't.

I got to go too.

I got to go fast.

No, no, don't, don't, don't try to play that.

But I got to go do something.

You continue to sit there and eat, Check out Oprah, eat Ding Dongs and watch Maury Povich or whatever it is you're doing.



Isn't it anymore?

Sally Jesse Raphael.

Dude, I'm a kid at the 80s.

I remember all those shows.

Anyways, all right buddy.

Until next time.

Adios, amigo.


Talk to you later.


#ConcretePodcast #CeramicCoatings #PolymerProblems #CraftingWithConcrete #DIYDecor #ConcreteCraftsmanship #CreativeConcrete #PodcastBanter #ConcreteCommunity #CraftingTips