How to Master Concrete Sealing, and Calculating How Much Mix is Needed

Join us, fellow concrete enthusiasts, as we explore the professional techniques of sealing concrete, a pivotal but challenging step for many artisans. Say goodbye to struggles as we uncover the keys to mastering concrete sealing success.

Moreover, we share valuable insights into calculating the perfect mix volume and understanding the overall cost of Kodiak Pro Maker Mix. This deep dive involves considering TBP, Fiber, and Sealer expenses for a comprehensive square footage pricing analysis.

Lastly, we venture into the realm of "Sandmageddon" - don't miss this concrete-rich conversation that delves deeper than the surface.




It's going well, Really well, let's.

Start this again.

Let's start this again.

Let's start this again.

Let's start this again.

I don't want to start it again.

I'm going.

To start it again, OK.

Hello, Jon Schuler.

See, This is why I laughed.

And everybody already knows that you started it again because we did something wrong.


Hello, Brandon Gore.

Yeah, We don't want to hear about the holiday season.

So we're starting again.


Yeah, I love it.

We all know it's a holiday season.

We don't need to talk about it, but I love it.

Makes me happy.

I like to talk about when I'm happy.

Come on, man.


I'm not happy.

Can you hear these dogs in the background right now?

I can't.

I wasn't going to say anything.

So anybody listening?

The last 11-12 days of my life has been chaos.

The short story is I have half my building up for lease.


I bought this building.

And we renovated it and we're we're going to lease one side of it.

The, the listing agent called me a while back and said, hey, are you cool with a doggy daycare?

And I'm like, dude, I love dogs.

Yes, I'm totally cool with that, right?

Turned out it didn't work for the doggy daycare, but he knows I like dogs.


So a local rescue in Wichita who's like a really big rescue, they're they're kind of like the most well known dog rescue is renovating their building their the state came in and said hey, you have to make these changes, whatever updates and they had no place to go.

And nobody's going to lease to them for they need a a place for like a couple weeks, right?


Nobody's going to lease to them.

And so anyways, my realtor hit me up.

I was like, dude, you don't have to say yes, but they have no place to go and they're in a really tight spot and they only did it for seven to 10 days.

I said, dude, yeah, 7 to 10 days.

I'm totally cool with that.

And so this was now 12 days ago, 13 days ago, I don't know when they moved in something like that.


And how's it going, man?

Dude, you ever seen the movie A Christmas Story?

You ever see that movie?

The bump of sounds come like trud, like galloping through the house.

Just chaos.

That is.

What I've learned is I have to soundproof this division wall between the two suites because there's fifty dogs over there right now that are losing their minds all day, 24 hours a day just going absolutely crazy and it smells like a hamster cage in my shop now.


Like, I walk in, I'm like, dude, this smells like a fucking hamster cage in my shop.

So and and because it's all volunteers they clogged the the not just clogged the toilet they clogged the sewer line so bad I had to get a sewer company to come out and like snake the whole sewer line on their side.


So anyways no good deed goes unpunished.

My wife's told me when I called her up and like, hey what do you think should I do it She's like no, you get the class coming up like you know you got enough going on.

No good deed goes unpunished.

I'm like my heart won't let me say no.

I got to say yes.

These dogs need me and, like Sarah Mclachlan's Playing It background the eyes of the Angel and I'm like, yes, yes.


I'm going to save these dogs.

But anyways, where I'm going to this Jon is 7 to 10 days came and went and and I hit him up.

I'm like, hey, why don't you guys plan to move out?

Oh yeah, well we had snow here Friday, the weather slowing down, the contractor.


Oh really?


It just snowed.

So I don't think that's the case.

But anyways, I'm just, you know guys 7 to 10 days we've it's come and gone.

You know you got to you got to pick it up.

You got to speed up because it's what happened.

Contractors like, oh, they get the dogs have a place to go.

Let's slow the pace.



Yeah, you know, that's the holidays.

It's Thanksgiving.

Let's just let's just, you know, let's take a 5 day weekend.

Then they find that Brandon Gore, he had like a Cape on or something, A Cape and he was going to save, save the dogs.


Yeah, we'll just slow down.

First time and last time, dude.

Next time, Sarah McLachlan.

I'm just going to turn that record off.




Scrooge, Scrooge over here now, man.

Bah humbug.

You know, So anyways that's that's so.


Anybody listening?

You're going to hear dogs constantly if.

If like somebody walks in over there, it is just crazy.

I'll post a video maybe of just like how crazy this is right now.

It is crazy.

It is.

I know.

I told you I take my cat to to groomers and it's same thing.


It's behind it.

It's AI don't think it's a rescue.

It's just a kennel kind of thing.

But you walk in there Oh yeah, the the smell hits you.

There's no question about it.

And it is non-stop.

I don't know how many dogs are in there, but it's constant barking all day long.


Yeah, good thing.

Good thing I wear my Airpods constantly.

Because your Earpods, dude.

Now you got me saying that I I I sound like a total pumpkin when I talk to people.

Hold on, I'm going to put my Earpods.

I mean Airpods, they are your Earpods.


They go in your ears.

Good thing, Good thing that's like my usual day, because I can drown it out for the most part.

But I've had people, you know, I had electricians here last week.

I'm putting in by the way, again dude, my third mini split I've installed in this building and this is the biggest one yet.


This is a three ton mini split and I'm heating and cool the back of my shop now, which is the first time ever in my life I've never had heated and cooled shop space.

In Eureka Springs, I had the Radiant 2023 baby.

Dude, moving on up.

Yeah buddy.


I had the radiant heater in Eureka Springs, which is great in the winter time.

Radiant Heat's awesome in the winter time.

But come summertime, you're just sweltering in there.

I mean, you remember you used to come do classes in the middle of summer?

It is.

I think it was.

I never thought it was bad, dude.

I it was hot.

It was hot and so anyways I put in a three ton back here and kicked it on yesterday.


Anybody who who has never used a mini split, I'm telling you right now, they are the best thing.

I just I can't get over like how amazing they work.

How efficient they are.

How quiet they are and you can install it yourself.


It's something you can do yourself.

You know I I put in this this two or I'm sorry this three ton for 2000 bucks by myself and my shop is heated and cool now it's it's amazing it's amazing.

So anybody out there listening I wish I'd have known that like I didn't know that I wish I'd have known that five years ago.


You know, Eureka Springs, I would have, I would have put two or three of those on the.

Side of my building and he didn't cool my whole space, but I didn't know right on, man.

Yeah, well, like many things, you don't know what you don't know you.

Don't know what you don't know.

I was sitting on a Dr. thru a little while ago waiting on a drink, and Brian Manzanaris sent me a text.


And it was a good text, had some good questions, and so one of the questions was he was trying to figure out how much.

How much surface area, How much square footage does a bag of Maker Mix make right?

Say that 5 * 522 How many back?


So you know, on the back of the bag, it has cubic foot measurement 0.37.

A lot of people if they don't, if they're not used to using volume, they may not know the process of figuring out the square footage.

And so I'll just run that down really, really quick.


So a cubic foot.

If you multiply 12 * 12, which is a square foot, that's 2D12 by 12 * 12.

Now it's a cube.

That equals 1728.

Seventeen 28.

That's how many cubic inches are in a cubic foot.


OK, so .37 cubic feet.

If you multiply .37 * 1728, that's gonna be 639 cubic inches that one bag makes.

So that's the cubic inches, 639.

So Brian was asking.

Well how do I, how do I know how many square feet that is?


And I'm like well at one inch thick, which you know I do a lot of things at one inch thick.

Let's do 12 by 12 * 1 which is 144 and we'll divide 639 by 1:44 and that is 4.44 square feet, 4.44.


But so by knowing the the volume you can calculate if I'm doing 1/2 inch, I'm doing 1/4 inch, I'm doing an inch and a half, you can.

You know 12 by 12 by .25, that'd be quarter inch, 12 by 12 by .5, that'd be half inch and that'll give you your your volume and then you can divide that by the by 6:39 and that will tell you how many square feet per bag it makes.


So anyways that that was one question you had and that was a good question.

Would add an.

Add an inch, yeah, or the.

A simpler method would be, which you're absolutely right to run.

The cubic feet is but just .37 * 1212 inches tall, you know, so .37 cubic foots already taken into consideration.


The 12 by 12 by 1 inch, so you just do 12 * .37 gives you the same about 4.5.

Yeah, square feet.

But that's at one inch.

I'm saying if you know the process and you know you're like I'm making tile right now, quarter inch thick tile, well then I can figure in fact yeah figure my volume.


So anyways that that was a good question.

And again, it's something that we have discussed it, but it's probably been you know a year since last time we talked about how to calculate.

Square footage, a good question.

Second question he had which I thought again was a great question was what is the all in price of maker mix, TBP and ICT per square foot.


What is the all in price?

And you know, so let's just figure it one inch thick and then you can extrapolate that if you know however you want.

If you if you're doing quarter inch, then multiply by 4.

But did did you have time to run those numbers?

Because I sent you a text and asked you to run it real quick.

All right.

So what does that come to?

Well, let's, I'll walk through one each individually and then the total, I'll throw the total out first.


All right.

Total comes in at $12.50 not including fiber because obviously that's a it's not a huge change but you're going to either if you're using glass fiber again $3 a pound or PVA fiber $9 a pound, you know the different loading rates, but just for the three items at retail you're about $9 a square foot.


Again based on the retail bag of maker mix TBPI calculated, I kind of took the mid range of 50 grams per bag because I again again how much you use ATBP whether it's a clay mix or self consolidating.

So I kind of just grabbed 50, which is pretty flowable like Dusty's using 50 grams.


So I use that and that came about $2.00.

Sealer's about $1.50 a square foot.

So your total all in price again without LTL or anything is $12.50.

And is that is that retail or is that pro that's based on retail?


All right.

So 12:50 and then pro pricing 12:50.

Yeah, I take a, yeah, I take 11%.

So 11, about 11 bucks, 1150, yeah, 11 bucks, yeah.

So that is per square foot and then like you said you have freight and that's going to be highly dependent on how much you order and where you're shipping it to.


So that's kind of a wild card.

I mean we have customers that the freight's a couple 100 bucks.

We have customers that are freight's 2000 bucks because they're in Alaska or wherever you know so.

So that's something that's, that's individual but and then glass fiber you you know.


I'd say what with shipping, you're probably about a dollar a square foot on average.

No, actually, based on, I did 2 per 2 1/2 percent loading and then all your fiber, it's about 3 bucks a pound.


So at 2 1/2 percent loading, you're 4/4 and a quarter $4.25?


Per square foot, A square foot.

Wait, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

If it's $3 a pound and I'm putting a pound into a bag of maker mix, and that bag of maker mix will do 4.4 square feet.

Oh, you're shipping about a dollar a pound?


Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

Like that.


Times .37.


So you're right.

A little over a buck a pound.


So or a buck square foot.

So then your PVA would be about $2.00 a pound.

OK, 250.

So let's say 1250 + a buck 1350 a square foot plus shipping.

Let's just say all this shipped together was 800 bucks.


What does a pallet do?

Like how many square feet does a pallet make it 1 inch thick, Jon?

OK, give me a second and I can figure that out.

I can figure it out.

I'm faster than you. 228 square feet 229.

So you're looking at about three 49350 a square foot in freight charges.


So you said 1250 + 350 is $16.00 a square foot?

Plus the fiber.

So that's 16 bucks.

Yeah, yeah, $17.00 somewhere in that zone.

So let's say 17 all in, that's freight, that's mixed, that's fiber, TBP 17A square foot.


And so I mean that's a good conversation because again, we haven't talked about this in a long time, but I've never actually run those numbers honestly.

So 17, and you know, I'm not telling people what to charge.

Everybody should do their own calculation on.

What their square footage price is, they're doing countertops, but I would tell you I'm going to be 135 minimum, probably closer to 150 on 99% of my projects.


So 150 that's 17 bucks a square foot is really a non issue.

Well based on that what you just said you were looking at a $6800 job and your materials came out just over 800 bucks.


So I mean that's not even what 12% of the job?


And it's something that, again, we've we've said before, but I think it's worth saying again, the cheapest products you'll ever use are the ones you only have to use once.


That's the cheapest.

I've learned this lesson again and again and again when I cheap out on anything and when I'm doing a woodworking project and I just choose to go to Lowe's and get some cheap sealer versus buying.

You know, the ones that my woodworking buddies all use that are really good.

I pay the price.


I pay the price.

I pay the price in aesthetics, or I pay the price in yellowing, or I pay the price in performance.

Any time I've ever cut corners to save a buck, it cost me more than had I just done it right the first time.

So the lesson is, you know, we could go down and you can buy Quikrete Portland and we should do those calculations.


You know Quikrete Portland #30, Silica Sand.

You could buy some pozzolins and have those shipped to you, all that kind of stuff.

But I mean, you'd probably be 12 to 13 a square foot all in when it's all said and done by the time you get those materials.

So you know, you might be saving $4.00, a square foot and a couple 100 bucks, yeah?


A couple 100 bucks on a project, but if you do it twice, which chances are you're going to, you have a much highly, much more highly likelihood that that is a a possibility.

If you have to do it twice, then you're upside down.


And if you account for your time, which is your biggest cost by far, your time, you're really upside down on that project.


Now you've you, you could have just stayed home and watched Maury and found out who the dad is.

You could have done that, and you would have made more money than had you done it twice.

Because now you're doing a project, plus you're taking money out of your pocket, essentially, and giving it to the client.

They're not aware of that.

But that's what you're doing because you're doing it twice.

So good question.


I mean that didn't have said, I mean yeah, we we keep circling the wagons on this whole thing.

But I posted again the write up from the individual that was making those bedside tables and one of the bedside tables had a lot of voids and stuff and one did not.


And I'll again, the idea of that isn't that 01 had voids, 1 does not.

No, it's the idea that at the end of the day both of those would probably hold a lamp up.

But if your aesthetics was to now spend the labor time to fill those voids and sand them out, and you know it's just.


A1 time process.

It's three or four layers, Yeah, it's not at one time.

So you just added, you know that I shouldn't say you added.

I just say at the end of the day, one project based on what it is, is gonna gobble up a minimum of hours worth of Labor and one is not.


Both accomplish the same thing, holding the lamp up next to your bed.

But one took you, another you know 3-4 six hours whatever it took to get to where you want and the other one you spent the same four to six hours decorating your room.

You know what I mean?


I mean it's that's the difference.

And if it's a business then yes, that four to six hours a in business could be done many other things that afford your business or family and and that's really the angle we've been taking the whole time.


Let's talk about what we're going to talk about on today.

On today's podcast The Concrete Podcast, Are you ready?

I am ready.


How to seal concrete?

Jon, how to seal concrete?

This is well that we're going to talk about the processing.

And that's part of this conversation.


I think the the bigger conversation is how to seal concrete processing is determined by which sealer route you choose.

So we can't talk about one without talking about the bigger picture in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah.

So sealer, I mean it really comes down to two options in my opinion.


It's going to be either a topical sealer or it's going to be a reactive sealer.

Those are the two big options in our in our industry.

And really when it comes to a reactive sealer, ICT is the only one on the market.

And then when it comes to topicals, there's a ton of options.


Some of them are made by actual companies, and a lot of them are repackaged by middle men.

That are taking off the shelf topicals, urethanes, acrylics, epoxies and slapping a label on it.

Yeah, down packet slap a label on it and and so you know then you're just buying through somebody in the middle.


Both of them have pros and cons and both of them require different processing.

You want to talk about topicals first, as in, oh, what they need for.

Processing I would say.

Well, what they need for processing.

But topicals I mean.


And here is when would be a good situation?

When would somebody want to choose a topical overreactive When?

What situation would that be?

Well, I can really only think of one and that would be if you need something that that requires a color enhancement.


I mean really that's anything beyond that.

I don't I don't see the the true benefit, I mean if you, if you walk through them but reactive technologies are are not going to have the same quote UN quote wet look final product as some topical technologies.


So that's the only one I can think of.

Color enhancement, OK.

What about, I mean, I think color enhance is good.

What about continuous water exposure?

Like what if you're doing a water feature and there's going to be, you know, 12 inches of water in this, in this fountain, in a?

Place and you you want it to essentially just be like a plastic tub in there.


You don't want any moisture infiltration, you just want to create a plastic barrier.

Would that be another instance where you choose a topical?

Well, I, I it's still going to have a a limited time span because at the end of the day, topical or otherwise, unless and like you were saying, unless it was a full-fledged plastic liner, I'm going to say no, because we're still dealing with concrete And that sealer, at some point all it's going to take is a pinhole or some kind of crack in the film and it's going to be a a far more catastrophic.


So in that situation, I would probably, again, I would embrace the darkening of the concrete because yeah, your your topical's not going to last.

Yeah, I don't know unless it's a full, unless you put a full liner in.

Yeah, I just think there's I I used to use topicals.


I started with topicals and.

There's some topicals out there that I think are if you're gonna go that route or probably in my opinion are probably the best for a topical in one of them.


I the one that E32K is the only one I could think of, yeah.

I was gonna say E32K from Richard James, Specialty Chemicals, yeah.

Are are E32 Ki used to use from them?

It was, I wouldn't say easy to apply because there's a mixing time.


Conduction time.

Then you have a certain amount of time to apply it.

You have to be very meticulous about dust and you know, anything like that because it is a film and if anything lands in that film, you're screwed.

But that being said, I did a lot of restaurants and I did a lot of university projects with E32K from Richard James Specialty Chemicals, and they held up great.


They held up great, but they were plastic.

I'd taken this material.

Concrete, which was amazing.

And then I coated it in plastic, and that's what I always hated about it.

There's this restaurant I used to, I used to always go to, where I made this communal table.


It's called Green in Tempe, AZ.

And that table.

Another thing about it too is the concrete never ages.

You know, you encapsulate it and it stays the same.

And I made this communal table.

It made scratch and wear.

But yeah, it isn't going to change.


I mean it didn't really scratch or wear.

That sort of thing is about the the Richard James Specialty Kimmel Z32K.

It was a a really durable topical.

So I I coated it and installed it.

And for years and years and years, you know, I'd go to that restaurant and eat and it never aged.


It never changed.

It never aged.

And when you sat at that table and you put your hand on it, you might as well have been sitting at a Corian slab because it was that's what you're interfacing with.

That's what you're that that was your reality is when you touch it, you're touching plastic.

And you knew your your body knows your tactile, you know, your fingertips, all those little nerves, when they touch it, they can tell this isn't concrete.


I'm touching plastic.

And so it lost the beauty of the material, lost the sole of the material.

Another part of the sole material is letting it organically, gracefully age and time.

So you know, that's the thing I love about reactive sealers is they protect the the surface from staining, but they don't protect it from.


Is that on your side or my side?

Yeah, it must be on your side.

I don't got nothing, nothing going on over here.

Yeah, there's a bunch of people walking around outside.

I guess they're walking dogs anyways.

So the thing about ICT, about a reactive sealer, is it for me, It seals the surface, but it allows it to age gracefully.


It doesn't stain, but it does slowly darken in areas you get a lot of wear and it just allows it to be.

The real material, when you touch it, you're touching the concrete.

And so, like at my house, for instance, we seal the countertops.

Countertops are beautiful.

There's not a single stain anywhere on that countertop.


But around the stove where, you know, everyday we're cooking bacon, we're, you know, searing steaks and cast iron.

It's darkened a little bit because all the grease splattering, coming off constantly, you know, and we wipe it up.

But it's just one of those things.

And I think it's beautiful.

I think it's beautiful.

It's not stained.


There's no stains anywhere, but it just shows this is a real material.

This isn't Corian.

This isn't epoxy coated granite, you know, this is a real thing.

And for me, that is the beauty in the material.

Our coffee table, which my girls still continuously torture, test every day to the Max.


Whatever they can do.

I mean, they plot like what can we put on this table today?

Let's try paint markers, let's try nail Polish remover, Let's let's do everything.

You know, Sharpies, Anything we can find?

Mess up this table.

Let's try it.

They've tried it all.

The table still looks amazing.

Still looks amazing.

I I sealed that table, man.


I mean that was 789 years ago.

So it was when we first moved to Arkansas.

Like 7 years ago.

Years ago.

And I've never resealed it and it has been abused like nothing else.

And but it's aged.

It's aged gracefully.

There's on a stain on it but it doesn't look it doesn't look like brand new concrete.


It just looks like like.

Leather that you've sat in over, you know, all these years and it just gets that nice patina to it.

That's the beauty in my opinion.

That's the beauty of concrete.

If you can, let the concrete be real, real things, real things don't stay the same.


Humans don't stay the same, you know?

We're all slowly aging, and copper doesn't stay the same, and cedar doesn't stay the same.

And you know, concrete I think is the beautiness, surrealness, so let it be real.

But anyways, that's my opinion on on topicals.


What's your opinion?

Yeah, again, we we've gone through this so many times.

And the other thing I'm going to just add to that is when an artisan, because, I mean I it's it's like life is a circle, right?

I mean, that's what I say.

And when an artisan learns to embrace the material for what it is, what's wild about that is number one again, their confidence.


Your confidence goes up.

Your passion goes up.

Your business continues to flourish.

You know, all, but you know, we've all fought it, man, For years.

We all fought whatever it was, this expectation, weird.

And then once you embrace what it is, and now in this case, we're talking about concrete, but it can be leather.


I mean, whatever we're talking about, all of a sudden you're like, Oh my God, I am so much happier when I I wouldn't say changed my expectation, but I think it's it's more about growing up in yourself and realizing the real beauty of what things can be.


You know, the tree wasn't gorgeous when it's a sapling.

It was a gorgeous.

Now that it's, you know, leaves falling and bark, and I mean, it's just, it's beautiful.

So anyway.

Yeah, well, back to topicals.

Where this started is for a topical.


When we're talking about E32K, we're talking about any of the other topicals.

The way you're going to process the concrete is you need to leave a tooth to the concrete so that topical coating can mechanically bond to the surface.

It needs to be able to mechanically bond.

You don't want to take it to a high Polish and then apply a topical coating, because that topical coating will inherently want to peel off, you know, in short order.


So you're either going to do that with an acid wash or you're going to do it with water polishing or even sanding.

And if you water Polish your sand, you want to stop at no more than about 200 grit is, you know, kind of the highest grit you want to go to.

Because anything beyond that, you're going to start to lose that mechanical bond that that sealer needs.


Well, yeah.

And let me just emphasize, the mechanical bond is necessary even with further applications.

Meaning it's not just that first coat of the concrete, it's everything they're after.

And that's the trouble that some people are even getting regardless of solvent based, you know, water based, whatever the case may be, is one of the biggest issues with delamination isn't because such and such product is garbage.


It usually is because in between applications too, there wasn't sand.

In other words, there wasn't tooth.

There wasn't enough tooth to grab and next thing you know, you're showing up, you know, dig cutting a faucet hole or putting a piece of tape down and then you're pulling your application sealer application right off and it's peeling and and that's So I'm just want to emphasize the whole tooth idea goes much further than just the first application to the concrete.


It's through through the applications as well.

Yeah, especially if you're letting each application quote UN quote cure, yeah?

You know, if you're doing wet on wet or like tacky on tacky, essentially where you know with E32K you'd put on, you know 11 the waterborne urethane or waterborne epoxy.


I think it's epoxy 1st and urethane second, correct?



We put on the epoxy and while it's still tacky, you apply the urethane so there's more of a chemical bond between those two.

But yeah, if you're going to let it cure up, you definitely need to again profile it to put a tooth to it so the next layer wants to bond to it absolutely.



So that's topicals on reactives, you can take it to whatever Polish you want if you're so inclined.

And I have done that in the past.

I have had customers that want an extremely high Polish on the piece.


And so in those cases, I'll take it up to, you know, 1002 thousand grit Polish and the concrete itself is just just, you know, super reflective.

And seal it.

And you're not worried about the lamination because it's not a topical it's chemically reacting with the concrete and and then I'll hit it with a hog's hair pad to buff it to just again, you know make it, Oh my God.


And it's like a mirror.

And there's I have some photos on my website of my old conference tables that way the square one has a fabric form element in the middle and my old desk was that way.

We took it to super high shine.

But the downside of that is a super high shine isn't very life friendly.


It's a surface that if somebody drags their MacBook across the surface or anything like that, it's going to leave scuff marks on the surface that are that are very visible.

Where had we taken it?

What I prefer to do is an acid etch.

Had we acid etch the surface, put a profile to it, then sealed it.


When people drag some across that the surface is already matted out.

And it doesn't show visually show those, you know, they're not, they're not failures or or anything like that, but it's just, it doesn't show the scuffs and everything that you would see on a super high Sheen surface.


And so those are more life friendly.

Well, and the wear, you know, you get much better wear over the long haul because the intermittent highs and lows.

And this is what we've all learned, the intermittent highs and lows in that even the mildest acid wash creates these, you know, let's call them microscopic peaks and valleys.


So when things are slid across the surface, cast iron pan, whatever we're talking about, it rolls across the peaks.

And yeah, the longevity of that surface goes tenfold.

Yeah, that's something we've all learned regardless of sealer too.


I mean, I just said that that's something we've all learned.

And I bring that up because I got a question recently about that.

I think I was telling you about when someone really like the out of the mold like Jon what can I do?

And I'm like well you got two choice, embrace it for what it is you know like like wax it or just leave it for what it is.


But no I don't, I don't like that because it's not going to be very durable meaning stain resistant and so forth.

And I don't care what you, you need to remove that as I call it the cast scum with an acid wash dilution of something to really get a durable surface.


That's that's the only choice.

We've all embraced it.

It is what it is.


And on the last podcast, How to Make a Concrete Countertop, we went through ceiling, but at a very, very basic level, a very DIY.


It's the first time you've ever touched concrete.

We don't want to scare you with the more advanced methods.

And we talked about the you know, here's the most bare bones way to apply.

A reactive sealer I sealed.

I I made conference table tops last week.


I came in Saturday and sealed them and I sealed them using the the most current protocol for ICT.

And I I went over with you because you know, things are always updating and that's a good thing as people continue to use this product and they find better ways of using the product, you know, yeah, I think the techniques, advancing their techniques.


Yeah, So we hear from Joe Bates things he's tried.

We hear from Dusty Baker, things he's tried.

We hear from all the users.

Hey, I tried this, man.

It worked great.

And then you tried.

And you're like, man, that does work good, you know?

And then you update, hey, here's here's a new protocol.

This is, you know, this is what I'm doing now and I think it works great.


There's nothing wrong with that.

You know, moving the ball forward at all times, in my opinion, is a good thing.

You should always be trying to move the ball forward, not just saying.

You know, we, we did this in 1987 and it works.

We're going to do it in 2007, we're going to do it in 2027, we're going to do it in 2047.

We're not going to change anything.

That's stupid.


You should always be advancing.

So that being said, I called you up and said, Jon, what is the most current protocol on applying ICT?

Because I'm going to seal this table and I want to do the most current way.

I don't want to do it the way I've been doing it for the last few years, which is fine, but I want to do what people are doing now, You know what you recommend and I wrote those things down.


Do you want to do you want to go through the steps?

Do you want me to go through them?

You want me to go to?

Because I mean, yeah, I know.


Because I do it well.

The funny thing is I called you up and said, Jon, I'm going to steal these.

I'm going to do the most current method.

You're like, yeah, just just just do it the way we do it.

I'm like, no, no, no, no.

The way I do it and the way you do it are probably different now because you're always advancing the process.


I want to do the most current method to date.

And so I wrote it down and I typed up a little a little note here on my phone, but this is going to be using a torch.

And if you use a torch, we use undeniably.

Yeah, we use a roofing torch.

It's a company called Red Dragon.


Is that what's Red Dragon?

Right, Flame.

Well, the company, yeah, the torches, I think they call Red Dragon, but it's Flame.

I mean, yeah, I'm not saying that's wrong.

I'm saying I just bought my Red Dragon on Amazon, I think.

And when I bought it, I sent it to you and I'm like, is this it?


And you said, yeah, that's the right one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure you can get it.

But I just go to the website

That's the main company that makes them.

And then at that point, no, you can go check them out and I'm sure you'll probably find one of their products on Amazon to pick up.



And you want to get a good I made the mistake initially.

I just went down to Lowe's Room Depot and bought a weed torch or roofing torch and you came to a class.

And you're like, dude, no, get a good one man.

Get a good one.

They they make a big difference.

And so I did really do.


I bought, I bought the right because you said get a red dragon.

So I got an Amazon, I got the red dragon and it was on a few 100 bucks, 200 bucks or something and I got it.

And no regrets.

That thing is great.

But you need to get a a roofing torch or a weed torch And the big one, they make a small 1A detail torch which is like a little little one.


Which is good.

If you're doing like, sinks and stuff, you can, you know, be a little bit more precise.

Yeah, that's the one I use the most stuff as the small detail.

Really, I use the big one.

But you know, well, let me take a caveat to that because I think I mentioned this in a podcast and how this is, this is where I'm a firm believe in.


We all learn.

We all learn.

It doesn't matter how long you've been doing it.

So I was down in San Louis one time working with a guy down there and we pulled out his torches and that.

So and this is what I'm going to say with those torches.

What I really like is, and This is why I choose them, the little adjustment, I don't know what the adjustment valve on the handle because one of the fears, in fact, I was just talking to somebody yesterday from Florida who's like, oh man, I just can't use, you know, Oh no, no, not the torch.


But he's picturing in his mind that big, you know, full flame turbocharged weed torch, you know and no, so you adjust that, you put it to a nice comfortable flame that's so easy to use.


And these have those.

So I was just look for the torches that have that adjustment so you don't end up with a, you know, a jet engine coming off your torch, 'cause that can be very intimidating where these you can adjust it back to this.

Very nice, you know, easy, manageable flame that works fantastic.


And you walk right through the process.

It's not intimidating.

You know you're not and and people know this.

I take these into people's homes.

I literally just did a restaurant vanity the other day, you know, with the faucets were all installed and the whole 9 yards and I'm pulling my little detail torch out and zippity Doo dah and yeah man, they're they're just not intimidating at all once you get used to them and know how to adjust them.


Very simple, very simple.

Well, I use the big one.

I have the detail ones.

I've, I don't think I've ever used the detail ones.

I think you're the only person.

I have two of them.

And you know, anytime you've come and done a class, you hook those up.

You use them when you're doing sinks and stuff.

But for me, for its slabs, the big one, it's just quick, you know, you just hit it real quick, super quick.


The thing about a torch that everybody needs to understand is you're not trying, you're not trying to use the torch to heat the concrete.

That is not the purpose.

You're using it.

We call it chase the vapor.

You'll see it as soon as you hit that surface.

You'll just see the vapor dissipate off the surface of the concrete that's in the surface.


You'll see it dissipate immediately.

And that's all you're doing.

I saw a video recently of a guy on Instagram.

Ceiling with ICT and I I sent you a message and said hey, you might want to reach out to him because he could see the ICT steaming off the surface.

Oh, blowing off you.


And that's something that we used to deal with back in the day because we were heating the concrete up way too hot with the torches.

I mean, I think that's something everybody does because in your mind, you're using the torch to heat the concrete.

You think that's what I'm doing.

And so you're intentionally trying to heat it up.

That's not what we're trying to do.


And so you know, I'll go through all the ceiling steps of the torch and I might torch that surface 5-6 times and if I touch it.

With my hand it's just barely warm, you know It's not cooking.

I'm not getting nothing up to 100 and 15120°.

It's like 80° when I touch it with my hand, you know, 80.


I think I finally peak out right around 85.

Yeah, when I'm finished.

So it's not I'm not heating.

What I'm saying is I'm not trying to use the torch to heat it this really hot temperature.

I'm just using it to chase the vapour.

So that's that needs to be said as well about a torch.

So yeah, let's let's just walk through the steps.

Number one, First of all, embrace the torch.


You know, either for years and years I go on a whole thing.

You know, tell people you know, is it necessary?

You know, I'm.

I'm to the point now.

It's just necessary.

Can it be done without it?

Sure it can.

And there's caveats to that.

But embrace the torch.

Embrace it.

It's not intimidating.


It's super easy.

So #1, raw concrete.

And I chase the vapor.

Pull out the torch, take the torch over the raw concrete.

You'll see what I'm talking about.

It's obvious.

You'll see where the flame kisses the raw concrete and the darkening that's in front of it, and you just chase that to the point that you don't see that anymore and the concrete is 1 dissipated color.


That's number one, the first application.

I personally like using two parts water, one part prime.

I put that depending on the size of the project, pull trigger spray bottle or a pump up spray bottle.

I prefer the pump up on on larger projects.


I'm also using a nine inch 3/8 nap microfiber roller and that's important.

It needs to be a microfiber and 3/8 guys have tried 5 sixteenths and three quarters. 3/8 seems like the magic number, and at that point what I like to do is essentially saturate the surface and use your roller to even the material out and then we could go on all kinds of descriptions.


Be aware that that roller, although damp with water, it's going to suck up sealer to begin with, so make sure you're very generous with your initial sprays.

At that point you saturate the surface, you roll to even it out, and you leave it alone.


You let it dwell.

I would say you'd be generous enough that you're not leaving white puddles, but not so thin that you are diligently trying to back roll material off.

OK, that's that's number one, and just walk away.


Let it, let it soak in and let it dry.

Once it's dried, which if it's done right, your first application should probably take a good five, maybe even 7 minutes to dry.

I mean, that dwell time should be pretty dramatic with your first app.

And once it's dry, pull out your torch, chase the vapor again, and at this point see it now becomes the caveats.


I would almost say wipe it with water or don't wipe it at all.

And I'm saying that because darker colors, you don't want to bring the vinegar in too early.

And then people get confused between water and vinegar.

And so I'd almost say just chase the vapor.


After that first one, just chase the vapor and then walk into your second application.

Second application, like one part water, one part prime, same idea.

You spray it out, you're using your roller, which you've rinsed out by the way.

Rinse it out.


Same thing, generous with the material spray, roll it out evenly and then leave it alone.

Just leave it alone.

Let it dwell, let it soak again.

As long as there's not puddles, you're good.

Once that dries, you're going to pull out your torch, chase the vapor and now what you're going to have is a little pail next to you with vinegar in it and a micro fiber cloth.


You grab that microfiber cloth that's been soaking in the vinegar, you wring it out.

Not a super tight fist, but just so it's not dripping and and you wipe the surface down with that vinegar.

In the vinegar, it should be noticed as just a household vinegar from a grocery store.

It's not super.


If you go to Lowe's room depot, they have strong vinegar.

Like what is it 45% or something?

Yeah, 30 or 45% that's used for weed killing.

Yeah, you don't want to use that.

You just want to use normal household vinegar?


Basic, yeah, 4% vinegar.


If you do pick the other, make sure you dilute it to a same 4 or 5% kind of idea, OK?

At that point it becomes repetition.

You apply another one to one if you want to, because this is where this is the point for me, where the protocol switches from how many applications to what that you start using your visual cues.


And the visual cues are gonna tell you because what you know, how much more you need in applications.

Because the one thing none of us can change is whatever amount Jon Schuler is leaving versus how much Brandon Gore is leaving.

How thin versus generous is my generous versus thin versus yours and so forth.


So this is where I tell everybody, switch to your visual cues and OK, so we applied 1-2 parts water, one part prime.

We just applied A1 part water, one part prime, and now we've torched it, chased the vapor we wiped with vinegar during that wiping process.


If I see the surface pretty resistant, then then I'm ready to move to my full full 100% application.

Full strength applications, if I wipe with that vinegar in instead see a substantial amount of darkening.


Darkening meaning you know the sealer's not really locking up as well as then I'll do a second one to one application in the same method.

Pump up sprayer 3/8 microfiber, roll it out, roll it out evenly.

Don't spend a lot you know, Don't get crazy with it.


Let it dry.

Once it's dried, I pull out the torch, I chase the vapor and then I wipe it with vinegar.

And again, I'm using the vinegar as my visual cue to tell me how that surface is looking because there has been situations where some people may apply several one to ones, but if you focus on the visual cues, that'll tell you at this point.


Let's just take for instance that I wiped it while the vinegar.

The surface is not darkening.

Or maybe I just see a few little patchy spots.

If I see a just a few patchy spots now, I move to my full strength.

Same idea.

Pump up sprayer, pump it out, roll it out evenly.


At this point.

Again, these are kind of the caveats.

You'll notice that what you think you're leaving generous at full percent at at 100% strength is really not that much because it's really evens out so easily.

So you're not using very much sealer at all.


It goes out.

Same idea, let it dry.

Pull out your torch, chase the vapor and white vinegar again using your visual cues.

You may need 2 full strengths, but if you see you don't, and you don't see any patch, you don't see any darkening.


I always finish up with two wipe on applications.

Again, full strength, but we've made the transition.

So rolling applications.

I use prime wiping applications.

I use sealer protector satin and I like to wipe onto full strength application in between and after the final application same thing, chase the chase the vapor with a torch, wipe it down with vinegar.


That whole process start to finish which you just did the torch and everything really allows you to move pretty quickly through the process.

Use your visual cues very nicely to tell you how well it's sealed up and and then I call it turn and burn.


The surfaces themselves can be used fairly quickly.

Yeah, I mean I'd say my shop I when I came in on Saturday, it was 20° outside and so my shop inside was probably 40-5 degrees, 50°, something like that.

It was pretty cold I the mini split wasn't hooked up yet so I didn't have any heat back there and I was using a torch to chase the vapor and like I said, by the end of it, it's probably 80°.


When I touched the concrete it wasn't cooking but.

All that being said, the roll on coats.

I'd roll them on and let them dry.

They'd letting them dry took a while because it was very cool in my shop.

And so I would say from start to finish took me about an hour and a half to two hours to do all the steps.


I'd let them completely dry before I chase.

You don't want to, you don't want to go torch them too soon.

So I'd let them completely dry and then I'd torch it.

So it probably took two hours to go through all the steps, and then it was done.

And then I let them set.

So what was your surfaces?

50 square feet. 10 square feet, 3 feet by 20, so 60 square feet, yeah.



So it it didn't take that long.

Had it been, had it been warmer, those roll on coats, they'd have dried even quicker.

That was what I was waiting on.

But it was, it's not a bad thing to wait because I'd rinse out the roller.

I have this tool that I bought a long time ago, like at a paint store that helps get all the moisture out of the roller.


So, you know, I'd squeegee.

The moisture of the roller and I set it off to the side.

I let them set Sunday and then on Monday I have electricians here hooking up that the the mini split hooking up the power to it and I said hey can you guys help me get these upstairs?


I got them upstairs and I wiped them down.

The water and those things completely 100% locked up 0 darkening anywhere.

And so anyways, no, it's you know, it works great, it works great.

So that was pretty much one day after sealing, you know, it's sat for a day, and then the next day I wiped him down and there was 0 darkening anywhere.


Yeah, that's what I love.

That's why I go back to the restaurant.

I just got done doing.

The vanity is that they were only going to be closed for the hall, you know, 23rd and 24th, right.

And so I went in there.

And first of all, I'm going to say typical of all of us, I had all my days screwed up.


So I I thought Thanksgiving was on a Friday, not a Thursday.

So I was not.

I didn't.

I literally got a text.

His name's Jason.

He threw me a text.

Like, hey, man, were you still planning on doing this today?

And I'm like, yeah, dude, I totally told you I was going to come in.


You know, the days you were closed.

It's like, that's today.

Oh, crap.

So I had to turn and burn and get my butt in there.

But anyway, yeah, I mean this, this vanity got sealed in place because of what was going on and went into full use at 11:00 AM and basically 36 hours after I sealed it.


Yeah, And by doing this process gives me the complete confidence of knowing that.

Now I'm going to add one more caveat which we brought up in in past podcast is this was a situation knowing let's say not knowing but not fully knowing the depth of customers using this.


So I did go back in the day trying to give 24 hours and I applied a ceramic to it, just a just wiped it down with ceramic, let it dry, hand buffed it.

And I I went back in there the next day about late afternoon and yeah, yeah, I mean you can say there was all it was already covered in soap and you know it's it's so funny man, when you see how people use a public restroom and it's it's it's the only one in there.


It's got 3 faucets and three soap dispensers, and yeah, it was already pretty mucky muck.

The ceramic thing is interesting because you posted that on Facebook on the ICT discussion page and I have talked to a lot of people over the last week and they all asked me what do you think about the ceramic?


I'm like dude, I haven't done it, but Jon says it's great.

And so again, it's one of the things that you've you've put it out there as it's optional, you don't have to do it, but if you want to do it, you can.

Why would somebody?

Do the ceramic coating, we say ceramic, it's the automotive ceramic coatings you put on a car and do you have a brand, do you like what brand is that?


Do you remember?

Well, I I mean, there's several I like, but the the one I'm really liking right now is GYEON.

How that's pronounced, I don't know G.


Yeah, GYEON.


And I like that one specifically because again me and the chemistry, it has a polysilazine in it as a beating acid.

So how do I say why the why?

Here's the real why.


For years and years and years we've all asked what are simple to use materials that either whether that be a customer, let's say maintenance based materials that a customer can apply.

Something that could be sacrificial, something that doesn't interfere with the chemistry, something that doesn't have to be stripped off.


You know, we've heard so many people over the years will be everything.

I've heard coconut oils, waxes.

I mean, you name it, yeah.

Armor all.

Remember that people were spraying armor all way back in the day.

These are all, if anything ever goes sideways, you know, this is waxes and they all have to be stripped off and and they they're just to me, they're a nightmare.


They're a nightmare where a ceramic, which is a silicon dioxide, directly reacts with this chemistry.

There's no bones about it and helps create a little more slide to the surfaces.

So prevention of scuffs and so forth increased total repellency and hold out over the lifetime.


So again, let's just say I'm going to say worst case scenario, really abusive environment is like the vanity I just put in, I've already talked him into.

I'm going to go in once a year in the maintenance, but I would say under the use and abuse of that, I would probably want to reseal that maybe in three years, right?


And again, I'm what I call a rejuvenation, just rejuvenate the surface and make them pretty.

And by adding the ceramic, even if it's something they did again under that kind of use water and soap continuing every day. 360 because he's closed five days a year, 360 days a year, that same scenario can now be prolonged probably into five or six years.


Yeah, with the same idea without having to worry about the surface is going to crap.

You know what I mean?

It's not going to look terrible.

It's you're not going to go in there and see corners peeling up or problems or you know, funkiness and and that's where a ceramic comes in.

It's simple.


They're comparatively speaking, they're fairly inexpensive and this is exactly why they're used on high end coatings.

I mean high end car coatings, you know, to prolong the beauty of car finishes.

So how do you apply?


The brand you like, Guayan, or however you say it, how do you apply?

Super simple, yeah.

What, do you just take the material?


Again, microfiber in this case, I think they it even comes with a little microfiber sponge.

You kind of saturate the face of that sponge and you just wipe it on.


I'm gonna say liberally put a little more on the sponge, right.

Wipe, wipe, wipe, wipe.

You just wipe it on again, walk away, let it dry about this kind of mid dry.

You don't let it dry completely.

Kind of this mid and then buff it with a microfiber cloth.


Super simple.

Where do you buy this at?

Are you buying on Amazon or where you buying it?

Yeah, I just picked it up on Amazon.

I'm gonna get some right now.

I'm gonna try it on the conference table upstairs.

Why not?

It'd be something to to try it on, yeah, but I've tried some other ones.

R 119 age.


I mean, there's all kinds of these out there.

A couple of guys, I haven't tried them, but they really like because it comes in a Kallon jug.

And that's the other thing, right?

There's so many price points.

If people haven't looked at the ceramics price points could be like, you know, 50 bucks or 100 bucks a gallon to to 100 bucks for this what almost looks like a little eyedropper.


What the difference is, I don't know.

Now this comes again other than the polysilazine brings us full circle how we open this podcast with people.

If I call up R1, they're not going to tell me what's in that doesn't matter how I ask the question.

But what we do know is ceramics under these are all built around the silicon dioxide as the base and the concentration of that is going to differ.


I'm guessing the less expensive ones have a little less the more expensive one have a higher amount and and it's that silicon dioxide in car finishes that you know prolongs that finish it and gives it a little more durability against your automotive car washes and so forth and so on.


So and with this chemistry manage it they they work right.

So I'm on Amazon right now while we're talking.

And they have spelling it wrong.

No, you're not.

That's the way you spell it.

I found it.

They have What is this?


Ceramic detailer?


So the one with the polysilazine is called Mohs, Mohs or Mos or something like that.

This same company has several different ones, but the one with the polysiloxane Polysilanzane.


Excuse me, is the Mohs got you again the the other ones maybe for, you know, detailing or cleaning or whatever the case may be, I don't know.

Yeah, because though the the some look at the one Guayan quartz ceramic detailer is 500 milliliters is 21 bucks.


Then there's the Guayan Q2 Mohs EVO, it's 50 milliliters.

So it's 1/4 of the amount and it's 95 bucks.

Yeah, that's the one with the polysilazine.

In it.


And I'm sure they have one that's just a pure silicon dioxide and what the advantage to that to another pure silicon dioxide, I have couldn't tell you.


Oh yeah, I see it's called pure.

There you go, pure EVO ceramic coating, which is, yeah, just a pure silicon dioxide.


So the next thing I want to talk about, Jon, you ready for the next thing?

Bring it.


Mageddon san.

Mageddon san Mageddon.


Yeah, so.

Well, let's just talk about this real quick and get it out of the way because it's a topic conversation that's been going around the last week.

So the long short short of it is we have several sands in our products and those sands are manufactured for us by materials suppliers.


There's these companies that essentially operate mines and you can specify this is what I need.

And they'll, you know, manufacture that they'll run whatever, 5000 pounds, 10,000 lbs and put them in super sacks and ship them to our blender.

And one of those same manufacturers has, well, let's back up for one second.


We've been hearing from people that spray a lot of face coats like Joe Bates, that they're finding big chunks of, like, gravel, occasionally in a bag of maker mix.

Yeah, plugging their guns and so forth.


So if you're spraying it, that chunk is problematic.

And so we contacted our blender and they went through all the sands we use and they found the culprit.


And there's this one manufacturer that it's a very small amount of sand in our mix.

It's only 12% of the sands is what the sand is.

But they they found that there's some chunks in it.

And so we contact or you contacted that supplier and said, hey guys, you have holes in your screens, obviously, yeah, there's holes in your screens.


Because we're ending up with big chunks in that sand.

And they said, OK, we'll fix it.

And so we had our blender screen that sand for us.

They ran it through screens to get the chunks out in the meantime.


And then you called and followed up with them, said, hey, you know, we, we're getting ready to do another blending.


We're running out of stock guys.

We've got to get it and we've had to order in with them for a time.

Yeah, we'll get it fixed.

We'll get it fixed.

Yeah, and you called him up and said what's the status?

And they said, you know what, we're not, we're not going to do it anymore.

We're just going to discontinue that, that product.

We're not going to make it anymore.

So for them it was easier just to say we're not going to make it than to fix the screens that that are have holes in them.


And that left us in a tight pinch because now we have to find the sand to replace that sand.

So luckily Jon has been doing this for so long that you know his Rolodex is super deep on material manufacturers.

So they contacted.


Different sand suppliers and said this is what we need.

What do you have?

And one of them said, hey, I got, I got something that's going to work.

So he sent it to you.

You looked at it, looked fine, you mixed it up.

You acid etched it, you held it up to previous maker mix.

It's acid etched.

You didn't see any difference.

You sent it to me, same thing.


I mixed it up.

I compared it to previous maker mix.

I didn't see I acid etched it.

I didn't see anything.

Great problem solved.

We we made the switch.

Now that being said, some people apparently are doing a much deeper exposure.

They're grinding deeper into the concrete and they notice some of these flecks of color that, you know, we didn't see when we when we asked to etch and we didn't see when you hold the sand in your hand.


But when you ground into it, you'd see some flex.

And so we had some people reach out to you and say, hey, or a person reach out to you and say, hey, I have these little flex of color.

And you just explain to me, yeah, well, here's what happened.

And even though I haven't seen any difference and you haven't seen any difference, we do listen to the feedback from our customers.


That's extremely important.

And so the fact that some people are doing a deeper exposure and they do see these flexi colors, we said listen, we'll we'll find a solution.

And so you have you found the sand that we're right now waiting on the sample to come in from the supplier because the supplier took a picture, looks great, but as we know pictures until you actually see it with your own eyes, you can't 100% trust see if I.


Wanna run an analysis on it?

Yeah it'll be here tomorrow to late afternoon tomorrow, but that should solve you know pending that the sand is what the photos show that it is that's going to solve that Fleck issue, the flex.

But the bigger conversation here that I think everybody should should understand is the reality of the materials world world pre COVID and especially post COVID.


But let's talk pre COVID because you've been doing this for a long time.

You did this with Blue Concrete, did this with Buddy Rhodes and you've you've assisted many other companies in the industry with their materials is the material suppliers the raw material suppliers products come online and offline constantly it's.


Constantly in flux, man.

It's constantly.

It's the nature of of raw materials and it's the nature of mining raw materials.

OK, so this material's available in two months.

Hey, we're not producing that currently, OK, you gotta find something else now. 99 times out of 100 we're able to get find a substitute that is totally, you know, in the same spec, same color and it is what it is, no big deal.


You know, we do our best.

We always do our absolute best.

But every now and then as it happened in this situation the the, the replacement from the one that we're using before had some flexing color that again we didn't see, but we don't do a super deep exposure, but somebody, some people did.

Yeah, I just wasn't thinking about that, to be honest with you.


You know, like I said, we we we found a solution.

But you know the truth of the matter is our jobs on this side of the of, of the industry is these problems are constant.

When I say problems, these challenges.


Challenges are constant and anybody that says that, oh our our mix never changes.

We made the formula and it is forever.

It's like, dude, either you don't know what you don't know because you're so new to it that you don't know what's coming or you're lying.


It's one of the two.

You either don't know what you don't know yet because you haven't experienced it, you don't have experience, or you're just lying everybody and saying nothing changed because it's constant.

So our job, and we take this job extremely seriously, it consumes A tremendous amount of time, is to make the mix as consistent as possible.


We do this for a living as well.

We use these products for our client projects.

So we're not just some material manufacturer.

They're just, you know, does things without, without any consideration to the end result.

We are highly aware and we're very, very concerned with consistency and performance and quality and that is our job.


When we take that job seriously and I just wanted to understand, we do the absolute best we can do.

There's nothing that we do haphazardly.

Jon doesn't wake up one morning and say, you know what I want to do today?

I want to change the sand around, just for no good reason.

Nobody's doing that.


OK, so.

There's two sides to that coin and like and we're on the edge and the two sides of that coin is and I love our customer base.

These guys are all fantastic and they really want to know the materials.

But at the same time knowing all the materials I it's how would I say it.


Not everybody's doing that.

This flux in in materials, raw materials is constant.

It's constant.

And it was a very large company that pulled production on what we needed.

And without, I'm not going to name anybody else, but other companies are using this material as well in their materials.


So because they piggybacked on what we were doing at the time once we got this one made, and that's more of Jon not keeping his mouth shut.

But that being said, other materials are changing as well.

We've seen this, I've seen this constantly with sealing technologies.


I brought it up a while again a while ago about some of the Co solvent systems that EPA is completely changing.

So I wouldn't say it's got the market in a panic.

But my point being is I know a lot of people say you need to know your materials, you need to know, need to know.


But nobody's telling you because.

I don't think they're all either a like you said, they just don't know.

But if you really did know, that would send people in panic all the time.

It really would.

I mean, it is, it is constant and and I'll continue to work around it.


This is what I do.

I actually enjoy it.

But it is a challenge.

It's challenging.

Well, anybody that is new to the materials game and there's some some people that are coming out with products that are new to the game, I would highly advise them to not throw stones quite yet about, you know, our materials are consistent and they never change because give it a minute, bro, give it a minute.


I promise it won't be long before one of the raw material suppliers that you're using will contact you and say we stop production on that.

So that's one of the things.

The other thing I want to talk about on this subject is we are using natural materials that are mined from the ground.


We're gonna do everything we can humanly possible to keep consistency, but the truth of the matter is the products are mined out of the ground and in mine, the deeper they go this side of the mind versus that side of the mind, things are constantly evolving and that's just the nature of concrete materials.


Yeah, even with them, they'll do their best, but they're, we call them organic.

So it's always going to be some amount of organics that come through, depending on, yeah, where where it's coming from.


And we went through this during the COVID when we launched Kodiak Pro at the worst time in history when COVID lockdowns were screwing the whole supply chain of the world up.


One of the ingredients in our mix, the silica fume, the supplier had to stop shipments due to to COVID to everything being shut down and we had to switch to a different supplier.

In it was white silica fume, but it's from a different mine.

And that mine the white is kind of silver color, you know that we that we were getting now it's still white because there's Gray silica fume and Gray silica fume is is very, very Gray.


I mean, you know, it's Gray.

You know, like Gray Portland, you know, Gray Portland.

This was white.

But it's from a different mine and.

Still considered the speck of white?

Yeah, still still white.

But it was a different shade of white from the one that we were using from a supplier that at that point had to stop freight due to COVID.


Concrete's a real thing.

It's a natural thing.

And as much as we strive for consistency, and believe me, we take it insanely seriously because we do this for a living as well.

Our livelihood is based on these materials.

So we get it, we get it.


But that being said, you have to have some acceptance of the naturalness of the materials and how those things change in time from different mines, from different sections of the mine.

It's just constant.

When I was in Phoenix and I was doing white concrete, this is way back in the day, I would use white Portland.


It was Lehigh.

It was the the brand that was available in Phoenix, Lehigh, White Portland White Marble Sand.

I'd use a blend of pozzolins, but the white marble, sand marble isn't pure.

White marble has veins of black and brown through it.

So the white marble sand had black and and brown specks all throughout it.


And when I'd make my white concrete and I'd acid etch into it, there's black and white or or black and brown specks all over the surface, right.

And that's just part of it is part of it.

I know I I wasn't ever upset about it.

Because you can't.

It's like screaming at the sun, you know.

You know the homeless guy at the corner.


It gets you nowhere.

This is the real truth of anything that's that's real is there's, it's not 100% and we're always listening.

That's The thing is the feedback that we get from people is extremely important and we do take it seriously.


So when people call something, say, hey, here's what I'm experiencing, we go to work looking into it.

You know, we search through our materials, we contact other people, Hey, are you seeing any of this?

You know, we're trying to get to the root cause of what could have caused that.

And we try to figure it out and we make adjustments as needed.


So again, that's our job and that's the job we take seriously and but you know we do the best we can and that's all we can do and and we're doing it, we're doing it, we're doing the best we can.

So any thoughts on that, Jon?

No, that's it.

Treasure on.


That's all we can do, man.

All we do, Yeah, that's it.


But here's the flip side though, with each of these.

I actually get excited about it.

I mean there's no question for a moment even me I get bummed out, but then I get excited about it.


I mean so working with this, this new company that to I'm actually going to these are going to be produced even more locally to where we're blending you know continue on our approach And I think at the end of the day which I'll find out tomorrow when I do an analysis or Thursday morning when I do an analysis.


That it will continue to improve and improve the quality, the aesthetics, the consolidation and improve the mix dramatically even over where we were at because I'm taking that amount of time of where we were and making the modifications moving forward to even make this.


Help this vendor create a better product than where we were.

So I actually, I mean, I do.

I enjoy it, man.

It sucks because it takes a lot of time and effort, but I really do get excited about it.

AIM knows like like tonight I probably won't sleep knowing that's gonna be here tomorrow.


I can't wait to run the analysis.

Make some changes.

You know, dude, you're a strange bird, man.

I love what?

You know.

Where this improves and goes even further, you know we may probably again as most guys right now, I mean most guys are running full self consolidating mixes at 27% water with two you know with full fiber loadings.


I mean to the point that we have as other people in the industry doing everything they can to you know.

Get the seeds of doubt in everybody because they can't achieve it and and I think that's amazing.

I I'm so amazed to see the success of people on top of my own success that yeah man I I dig it so well that that's a good segue to our last conversation for today's podcast and that is there was a question on one of the Facebook groups of somebody that was asking to compare the difference between Brad mix and these other materials on the market that are marketed as UHPC ad mixes or whatever, right.


What's the difference?

And I think the person has a genuine question they want to know.

Now the interesting thing about this Facebook conversation was a material supplier, A distributor that you know manufacturers or down packs or whatever materials hops on and and comments that they they want to know what's in our product.


Well of course they want to know what's in our product.

Why wouldn't they want to know what's in our product?

I if I was them I would want to know what's in our product.

So I don't fault them for throwing it out there, but they throw it out there under the pretence of, you know, we need to know, otherwise we can't trust the product.


And this is such a, you know, a hypocritical soapbox to stand on because they're saying we need to know, but they're not putting out the information about what's in their, their product.

Not that we care.

I don't want to know.


You don't want to know.

We don't care.

We don't care what's in their product.

But, you know, so it's one of the things that if you want to walk the walk, talk the talk, do the whole thing, then list all the ingredients in your product, not just an overview, not just a polymer or de Foamer.


What polymer, what de Foamer?

And what percentage of that AD mix are those ingredients?

That'd be the only truthful, Full disclosure that had any impact whatsoever.

But nobody's gonna do that.

Nobody's gonna do that.

It's a stupid thing to do.


But I would say, you know, I've had some time to think about that whole thing.

I actually laughed out loud.

And when I read that comment, I literally laughed out loud.

I laughed and I laughed and I called you up and we laughed together.

And it was a funny thing in my opinion, that a competitor was trying to like whip up people and create these seeds of doubt that you can't trust what we're doing because we haven't disclosed what's in our in our product.


Yeah, yeah.

But anyway, so I would say to anybody listening to our users, the difference is success.

You know this is what you wrote and I thought it was a great way to put it.

The difference is success.

The the difference is the people using our products have found success where they didn't before.

And that's the difference.


And and for us that's what matters.

I don't care what any competitor, I don't care about the seeds of doubt they're trying to sow in people's minds.

They're trying to muddy the waters.

You don't know what's real, what's not real, who to trust or not to trust.

Here's the truth, you and I, we've been doing this for a living for 20 years.

The products that we've developed, the products that we manufacture, the products that we sell are products that are based on our experiences and our failures.


And one of the biggest points of failure in this industry is the polymers that go in the mixes.

And we developed a whole family of products based around removing that problem out of the equation.


And we're the only company that's done that.

Nobody else has done it.



And that's ultimately we're getting cleaner finishes, higher density, easier to seal, faster turn around.

I mean it's it's mind boggling sometimes to me that that people are.


I don't know.

Holding on to this old stuff and then trying to relabel it as revolutionary.

I I truly don't understand it.

But I'll still say this though, and this is by no way what I'm going to say, that it somehow is putting down those people.


They're not using it.

And at the end of the day, that's where I think I understand where they're coming from is they want a material to sell, OK.

And but they're not using it.

And if you're not using it and you're not living through the experience that the rest of us have, making materials and putting it in place and sealing it and seeing the longevity of it and see the the goods, the bads, the positives, the negatives.


If you're not doing all that, then of course it makes sense because everybody else is doing it.

So why not if?

If you see so and so whatever, so and so's selling apple pies and you're like, woo, hey, I can make an apple pie, I'll sell apple pies.


And you're both kind of getting apples from the same orchard.

You're kind of both using, you know, butter in your crust and so forth and so on.

And now you're selling apple pies.

They have apple pies.

That's kind of what's going on.

They have, I got an admixture that's got a defomer and a polymer and a shrinkage.


Well, I got one too.

And and it's, I think it's better than his.

Well, why is it better?

You're using the same Eviac Titan.

It doesn't make any sense to me.

No, no, no, Mine's better 'cause I put a Puzzlin in.

That doesn't mean anything to me.


What puzzlin?

And the choices are limited when it comes to a white puzzlin, you know?

And if it's a anyway, I'll.

I'll stop right there.

So the point is, yeah, they they and then rebranding, repackaging, put a new something.

Now we're going to call it revolutionary.


I don't know.

It's well, here's the deal is we we talked about this a long time ago and it was your analogy, but it was so good because it it paints the picture perfectly.

The problem that we have found through our experience, this isn't just hyperbole.


This is from running companies making these products, making sinks, countertops, furniture, tile for 20 years.

Is polymer is the number one problem in the mix, right?

It's like putting poison in your coffee.

You're taking poison, you're putting your coffee.

Now you know there's poison in there.


You don't want to drink unless you put an antidote in there.

Well, we need to put a deformer in there because we know that polymer's going to whip up a ton of air.

Let's put a.


Let's put a deformer this It's not going to put an antidote.

Combating that, that's going to create a weakness here.

OK, so let's add this.

So now you have cascading issues that started with putting this one problematic material in there because you're you're basing it on old thoughts and old technology.


You're basing it on the way it was done in the 70s when that was truly groundbreaking.

But it's 2023, about to be 2024, right?

You know, you got to understand that the difference is we've approached this from a different mindset.


We've approached it from what was the problem.

The problem was this.

Let's develop a line of products that don't have that problem instead of dumping all these other things in there to try to mitigate that issue.

Let's just not even start with that issue.

Let's start the right way.

Well and so far and I don't see this changing so far.


You know again the the the success that people are seeing is what's humbling and and amazing all at the same time.

Just sent us some photos today on Messenger or post them on Facebook.


He casts these huge art plinths for for like, you know these statues and they're 7 feet tall and and super detailed as far as they have like engraved writing in them and things.

And he, he poured these using Rad Mix and you know hopefully he'll write a post about it because he's told us this in in in Messenger.


But he received received results that he's never seen before.

He's never been able to experience the level of quality that he's getting from Radmix.

He's able to do things that he could never do before with the materials he was using before.

He's able to do those things now, and that is what we stand for.


That is what Kodiak Pro is about.


That's what it's all about because and I think people get revved up too much and the argument becomes the materials.

And in a way, I get it, especially if you're another somebody trying to sell materials.

I get it.

I mean, I get it.

I I get.

I get the the stomping ground you need to be in.


I know you need to create and this willingness to want to create doubt so that you don't lose your sales.

I mean I get it, I get it, I get it, I get it.

And in some way to separate your product which is 99% similar to their product.


So that so that you're making sales and not because you're not going to tell people I, I get it, I I totally understand it and that's why for me it's not about the materials.

Watching and being a part of the journey, that watching again just make.


And I told this to Martin.

His confidence has gone up a thousandfold.

His, excuse me, the business that he's creating for him and his family has gone up a thousandfold.

You know, that's his customer base that he's become a part of now has gone up a thousandfold.


Now the materials have been part of it and I think that's fantastic.

But to watch that evolution of an artisan, to move the direction that that we really stand for is amazing.


And I love it.

That's what I love to be a part of.

Well, Jon, I think that's a good place to end it.

Right on, buddy.

Let's touch base next week.

Sounds good.

Alright buddy, we'll talk to you later adios.



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