Concrete, Cracks & Catch-Ups: What’s Happening in the Shop

"Sometimes, the best lessons come from unexpected hiccups in the shop." -Brandon Gore

After a few weeks away, BG and Jon are back—reconnecting, reflecting, and laying it all out. They talk through the postponed Hero’s Quest Workshop, unexpected hiccups with ICT Fusion Sealer, and what happens when you hit concrete with a torch (spoiler: sometimes it’s useful, sometimes it’s chaos).

You’ll get practical torch tips, care advice for sealed surfaces, and real-world lessons from two guys still learning on the job. It’s not just about concrete—it’s about the journey craftsmanship takes you on.

Pull up a seat. There’s gold in the grit.

#ConcretePodcast #CreativeProcess #MakerMindset #ConcreteCraft #GrowthThroughFailure #SelfDevelopment #ArtisanLife #PurposeDrivenWork #BehindTheScenesBuilding

TRANSCRIPT

Hello, Jon Schuler.

Hello, Brandon Gore.

Man, it's been a minute, hasn't it?

A few weeks now since the last podcast.

Oh yeah, and there's been a ton of stuff happening, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, one of the big things that happened is we had to postpone the upcoming Hero's Quest.

So, you know, I've talked about the slowness for me, and for a lot of people, with the economy, as far as projects coming in.

And I had a couple rush projects come in over the last few weeks, and I always say, make hay why the sun shines.

I told my wife that yesterday.

Absolutely.

Make hay when the sun shines.

So, I couldn't turn them down.

Normally, I try to put a long lead time, because I always feel that rushing is the reason why anything goes sideways.

That's always the reason things go sideways.

So, even if I don't need six to eight weeks, I say six to eight weeks just so I have time to do it right, so I don't feel under pressure.

But these, they needed them ASAP.

So, anyways, it just is what it is.

It was just turned out that it wasn't going to work, and so we talked to everybody, and everybody's cool rescheduling.

So, we're going to reschedule.

But you're saying that you might go out to Joe's, maybe do a ceiling demo day or two.

Yeah, maybe.

You know, it just seems...

We'll talk about this podcast.

It just...

How would I say it?

You know, when you post things on the ICT, or the Kodiak forum pages, people, individual using materials, are coming to the materials.

Maybe they're hesitant.

It still seems like, you know, having just a hands-on, specifically dedicated to maybe each and everything, but in this case, Sealer would help a lot of people, you know...

Even though they're getting good results, their results can still improve a little bit with a little fine-tuning.

You know, anyway, so I think I still believe it would be very beneficial for a lot of people based on the feedback I get to just come out, you know, maybe instead of making it a full-fledged course kind of thing, more of like a demo day-ish, just cover some expenses and come up for a couple days.

We'll still look at everything from resealing and torches and tooling and etc, etc.

I think it would be very beneficial.

I agree.

So a few things, one of these projects that I'm working on right now are some erosion sinks.

I know how to do things the right way.

I know the correct protocol.

One of them is ice.

Use ice, right?

Oh, yeah.

So I was casting.

I had to cast a few things that day, but I was casting and I cast a project in the morning, which I went and got ice for.

And then I was like, oh man, I forgot to get ice for the sink.

And I, you know, schedules, my time is running out.

I have to go get the kids.

I'm like, I'm just going to, I'm just going to pour it.

It'll be fine.

It'll be fine.

You know, it's like 75 degrees.

It'll be fine.

So I mix it up and I pour it with, I don't know, 75, 80 grams.

I think 80 grams of TBP with no ice.

It was pretty thick, right?

It was actually, no, it wasn't, it wasn't the erosion.

The erosion I cast in the morning.

It was a Muskoka chair.

So a Muskoka chair, that mold, it's, that chair is one inch thick, but the mold, you know, I poured upside down.

So it's this really deep, one inch, you know, wide mold.

So it's something that you really need SCC.

So I poured it and it has a heavy pigment load.

This guy wanted a 3% stone color.

So it was a heavy pigment load and it was thick, man.

It was like gravy.

It was like country gravy.

Like I went to Cracker Barrel and I was just pouring out that white country gravy down in there.

And I was like, oh man, I'm gonna have to redo this one, but whatever, whatever, it is what it is.

I just, I finished casting it, took a rubber mallet, tapped on the form a little bit.

And I was like, it is what it is.

So next day, my buddy Case came over to help me pop it out.

And we opened up the form and I was shocked.

It was the best Muskoka chair I've ever made in my life.

It was flawless.

It had one pinhole the size of a BB on the edge.

It was incredible.

Removed the back mold and that's where I can see where all the air bubbles would typically be.

And I was like, oh my god.

And Case is like, dude, what?

I'm like, this is insane.

I was like, let me show you.

And we went upstairs.

I have a Muskoka up in the loft that's made with Buddy Rhodes and liquid polymer, right?

And I said, look at the back of this.

And I spun the chair around.

He's like, whoa.

I'm like, that was as good as it got.

That was the best of the best.

That was best than every other brand out there.

That's why I used it back in the day.

And this was as good as it got.

This was the best you could get.

And then we went back down and I'm like, and look at this.

He's like, dude, he's like, you have to take a picture of this.

And I said, let me get it sealed up and put the base on.

And yeah, I'll take a photo of it.

But it's just insane.

But here's the deal.

Then that day, I put the mold back together.

I went down and got ice, replaced 30% ice, which isn't, you know, it's not, you just do 30%, but it was pretty warm.

So 30% is what I went with and it was perfect.

So I did 30% ice.

When it was time to slake, I took a little infrared thermometer, checked it.

It was 57 degrees.

And so put the glass fiber in.

I actually used less plasticizer and it was so much more fluid, so much more fluid.

And something you always say is the ice helps the plasticizer work better.

You know, so I was using less plasticizer, I was using ice and it flowed like a thin milkshake.

And that one, there wasn't even that one little BB pinhole.

That one was absolutely perfect.

So anyways, the importance of ice, ice is super important.

Now I got lucky, the piece came out.

But that being said, when I was pouring it, it was a much different consistency because I didn't use ice.

So always use ice or always keep your mix at 55 to 65 degrees in that range.

And you like under 60, you know, 55 to 60.

Yeah, I like that 55 range.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But keep it in that zone and you'll have a much, much more consistent and much better experience with an SCC mix.

Yeah.

I get the same call once in a while where somebody continues to go under 55 or even under 50.

And it's, it's very interesting.

I mean, I know why it happens, but it's very interesting to see that the mix on either side of that basically 10 degree temperature range, as you move one, two, three, four, five, you know, 10 so forth beyond that range, man, you know, a 40, 40 degree mix or 45 degree mix.

Oh, it's thick.

Yeah, it's thick.

And it leads somebody down the same path of, oh man, I need to add a little more water, or plasticize, or hey, what did I mis-measure, or whatever the case may be.

Just let it warm up, let it warm up.

Yeah, just walk away from it.

And I was just talking to, I think Jason Robertson about this.

Him and I were chatting just here the other day.

He's like, well, what do you do, man?

What do you, you know, do you just start over?

I'm like, no.

I literally just, you know, kick the mix to the side, walk away for 10 or 15, 20 minutes, whatever it takes.

Hop on TikTok, hop on TikTok.

Yeah, right, hop on TikTok.

Take my nudie pics and get them posted everywhere.

And then, and then come back and, you know, hit whatever, a second slake, whatever, you know, wherever I'm at at that time.

And if it's popped up five or 10 degrees, now it's just beautiful, beautiful.

And, you know, move on about your business.

Cause in those temperatures, if anybody doesn't know this, I think one of the concerns at least, and maybe not with Jason, cause he didn't ask this question is the concern of maybe it's stiffening up or your plasticizer dying off or whatever in that 15 minutes, maybe 20 minutes that you had to walk away for the temperature to rise 10 degrees.

And I just want to assure people that that really doesn't happen with good plasticizers because the reason it's so thick in those temperatures is your plasticizer, you know, think of it as dormant.

It's just dormant.

And so you need the temperature to rise.

It's fully disperse throughout your mix, but it's not creating the static repulsion.

It's dormant under those conditions.

So walk away, let it warm up, and then it's almost like it becomes activated within that zone.

Boom, you have plenty of time.

You'll still have 30, 45 minutes to an hour to work with it.

No problem at all.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So ice, use ice.

Don't be like me.

Do the right thing.

You know what to do.

Do it.

Do it.

Don't do it like me.

Don't do it like what I do.

You know, YOLO.

That's what I did.

I just sent it and I pretty much was certain I was going to have to recast.

I was convinced that it's going to just be Air City when I opened it up.

And it was perfect.

Perfect.

So that's a story that could be told for all of us, man.

You know, I mean, point being is all of us, I mean, many of us, anybody listening, you've been doing whatever you've been doing under your conditions for so many, you know, you have experience.

And this is once again, why we say experience matters.

You know, don't listen to those people that sit at desk all day and, you know, write down what they think is the right way to do it.

And then, you know, follow their lead because they've never really done it.

Or maybe they've done it in samples, but never a client project.

I mean, this is not who listen to.

Meaning me, ourself, inside ourselves, listen to your experience.

But in that listening to yourself, don't let yourself get caught off guard because we all do it.

Like you just said, like, eh, you know, whatever, man, I'm the guy who's going to be able to get away with this.

And you did.

I mean, it came out.

Okay.

You're, you're perfectly.

It came out amazing.

It didn't come out.

Okay.

It came out amazing.

But the reality is maybe the project did.

But throughout the process, you went through, let's say, you know, an emotional walkabout that you didn't have to do.

Yeah.

Well, and it was night and day difference and workability the next day.

How much easier it was to pour it like the speed, you know, it just flowed in beautifully.

The thing is, when you pour, you want to pour in one spot and let it fill up.

You want the air to be able to get out.

I don't want to pour in the left and the right and the left and the right and then in the middle and the top and the right and the left because it's going to run down and trap air in those spots.

So I try to pick a spot and keep pouring in that spot as much as I can and let it just kind of flow down through the form and push the air out naturally as it comes up.

But with the thicker mix, that was very difficult to do.

You're trying to push this gravy down this one-inch form and it just wasn't what in the flow.

So yeah, I mean, the workability was much improved.

And like I said, I used less plasticizer, but the ice made it so much better.

So yeah.

So continuing on this road of the things I've kind of learned over the last couple of weeks with these projects was I did these erosion sinks for a restaurant and I used fusion and I used 6% matte max.

And that's the kind of the max level for matte max.

And these sinks have a stone drain cover.

So essentially it's a concrete stone.

I pour it the same concrete as I pour the sink and it sits over the drain and the water flows underneath.

And there's these three nubs, I don't know what to call them, but they're like little half round spheres that hold the stone above the drain.

And I've done this design many times.

We call them trivets?

Even in that situation, it would be called a trivet?

I don't think so.

I'm calling it a nub.

OK.

Nub.

Three nubs.

Three nubs.

So I got these nubs sticking up.

And I've done this sink many times over the years using ICT Protect.

And that has enough surface tension that it's never an issue.

You put the stone on those nubs and it just sits there, right?

But the fusion, once it was all cured, I put the stone on.

And under just its own weight, it wouldn't stay on the nubs.

It would like spin.

It would just slide off, slide off.

It was like it was it was like oiled, greased.

You'd sit on there.

It just fall off, right?

You don't even touch it.

I would you have to balance it perfectly in the slightest little movement.

It would fall off.

So I was like, oh, man, this is an unexpected problem to have that I've never had before because the sealer is so slick, like the surface coefficient or whatever you would say.

It's just it's so slick.

It's insane.

So I went through different ideas.

One idea that I called you about, I think I'm just masking off the entire sink, but those nubs and getting some clear flex seal, rubberized coating and spray some of that on there and put like a rubberized texture on it that would hold that stone.

You're like, yeah, that'd probably work.

You know, you want to scuff it up before you do it, but that would probably work.

But my concern was in time, it would still peel off.

It wouldn't bond to the concrete.

So instead, I figured out I had to like use some little rubber bumpers that I put on nubs and I put the stone on and I flipped it over and I could see where they were touching.

And then I used a grinder, a die grinder, and I ground in little recesses to put the stone.

But I had to do that yesterday.

But the lesson was, or not in the lesson, but just something that I learned was Fusion was 6% Matte Max.

It's like Teflon.

It is so incredibly smooth.

It's incredible.

Yes, it is.

Yes, it is.

A lot of the information we relay out, and I'm not saying it goes on deaf ears, but until you're using these materials, it probably doesn't make sense.

One thing I've definitely talked about with MATTE MAX is even at the lower dosages, how it increases durability.

And in so many ways, people have asked me like, and whatever, John, but how would it increase durability?

Well, there's one example of it.

You know, when it allows, or let's say the ability, and say it's a kitchen countertop, and now a cast iron pan, or whatever the case it is, slides over that surface with more of a, you know, less drag, right then and there.

There's far less potential for scuffs, and scrapes, and scratches, and so forth, and so on.

And then at the same time, because it's an elemental oxide, the, so I refer to that as toughness rather than scratch resistance, just the elemental oxide aside, in of itself, excuse me, jeez, if I can talk, increases total durability and scratch resistance.

I mean, for a long time in, let's say coating technologies, in coating technologies, what was it?

I think aluminum oxide, if I remember right, aluminum oxide was, is still, and has been your go-to in like your, you know, your floor coatings, for that reason, increase total, you know, toughness.

They put that like on laminate floors, right?

Like aluminum oxide.

Yeah, all of it.

Yeah.

And then, and then for a while, I think they're still out there.

Sanding pads were aluminum oxide for the same reason, you know, they're just, they're just great at doing that kind of stuff, which now makes your sanding pad more durable for cutting through things.

Well, going along that line, you know, and I've always tried, I love aluminum oxide for what it was, but ICT could never, because there's just, there's not a film, you know, not a film build to it to ever get something like that in there.

It was always too big.

In fact, when I did try it, it was so funny, man.

It's it's like I put in that.

What's that silicate that you put in coatings to like increase grip?

Like was it shark grip?

Would I call it shark grip?

That's what it was.

Yeah.

So even though I would try this stuff, oh yeah, yeah, no matter what, it would end up like shark grip.

And then, you know, nothing would last.

It wouldn't sit in there long enough because I don't have enough bonding to it and et cetera, et cetera.

But now taking this into a micronized powder as an element.

Man, it just, it's, I just hate to use the word amazing, probably over words.

It's amazing the amount of happy accidents that continue to move forward with innovation.

And I'm extremely happy with what Matte Max does from what you're talking about, the ability for things to slide and glide and it makes, in general, how the surfaces feel is very amazing.

With still its ability, because you mentioned Teflon, which means remember the old EAP, which you couldn't reapply.

This still allows for all of that and increases longevity of surfaces sealed with it.

So to me, it's a whole lot of one, two, three, four, and five punches.

I was waiting to bring up EAP.

So EAP, this is what it reminds me of, because EAP, I used to be able to make a long counter or a long table and take a water bottle and just barely push it, and it would slide the entire length of the table from one end to another, like with the slightest little push, right?

It was awesome.

But if you did anything to it, you gouged it, you scratched it, anything, you're screwed.

You could never re-apply it, you could never fix it.

And so that's where this comes in.

It reminds me of that, which I always loved about it, but this is repairable.

If you were to drop a hammer and gouge out a piece, you could fix that.

You can re-apply more and it will bond, per se.

It's not going to just flake right off.

So yeah, it's an incredible sealer.

Incredible.

A few more lessons that I've learned was when I was sealing...

Keep them coming, man.

Keep them coming.

Dude, I've learned a lot, you know?

But I continue to learn.

When I was sealing, using the torch, and I've used a torch now for, you know, I was resistant to the torch originally, back in the day, when Jon was telling everybody to use the torch, I don't know how many years ago now, probably seven to 10 years ago, when you started using the torch.

When my hair was still dark.

Yeah, when you looked like, oh man, who's that sax player?

Michael Bolton.

When you look like Michael Bolton, with your long, beautiful hair.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, but did he play the sax or the clarinet?

What did he play, Michael Bolton?

I think he did both, but yeah, saxophone is what I remember he always did.

Yeah.

My mom loved Michael Bolton.

That's why I think of that.

Anyways, so back in the day, when you started using a torch, it really freaked me out.

In a sense, I'm like, oh man, I'm gonna catch something on fire.

Like, you know, it just, it seemed so extreme.

And I was in Arizona, so I could push stuff out in the sun and it would get to the same temperature.

You know, I mean, there's some places in the world, Saudi Arabia, you know, where you could put stuff out in the sun and you don't need a torch because it's gonna get there on its own.

And Arizona is one of those places where, you know, you put it out there and it's gonna get up to 140, 150, just being in the sun.

So you have that going for it.

But I was resistant to it.

But then I, you know, I started using a torch maybe probably about seven or eight years ago.

I switched over and I've been using a torch ever since.

And I've sealed hundreds of pieces, never cracked a piece in my life, never cracked it.

And so I was sealing these two sinks.

And one thing that I've noticed about these nubs is they kind of scorch, like the tops of them, they just get hotter or whatever and they kind of get like a yellow to them.

And it happens, even no sealer, just the concrete, you know, it's just the heat.

So I've noticed that with past ones.

And so I decided this time, I'm not going to use the torch around the drain.

I'm going to use a heat gun, even though heat gun is not as fast, you know, I can control it more.

And so I use the heat gun around the nubs.

And I was just doing a torch around the drain, but I was doing like a U shape left, right, left, right, because the drain is right next to the edge of the sink.

So I was doing like a horseshoe shape around the drain.

Anyways, not thinking about it, not going crazy with the torch, I'm using the digital thermometer, I'm checking it, you know, getting to the right temp.

And I'm seeing when I look, I'm like, man, there's like a little tiny hairline crack right in the area that I wasn't torching.

But it didn't register at that moment.

I'm like, huh, and I called you up, I'm like, dude, I've never had this happen.

You're like, that's weird.

I'm like, maybe I'm going too heavy with the torch, which I wasn't, but I'm like, maybe I am.

So on the other sink, especially, I was like being extremely careful not to go heavy with the torch.

So torch and torch and torch and being very, very mindful.

And I look, it has a little tiny hairline crack in the exact same spot.

And then it registered what had happened.

It took me doing both of them to realize what happened.

It was the uneven heating.

I was doing like a horseshoe shape and it had a little hairline crack where I wasn't torching.

I was torching left, torching right, torching left, torching right.

Those got hot, this didn't.

And because of that differential, that created that problem.

I never had that happen before.

So the lesson is when you're heating your piece, heat it evenly.

Don't skip an area because that could happen.

And you said somebody else, I don't know who it was, but somebody else had the exact same thing happen.

Yeah, same.

They were avoiding, I think it was like, why not?

I think I know what happened, but I looking at it looks like he pre-drilled the faucet holes.

Okay.

And so he, he was, let's say not being as diligent, going on the backside of the vanity in those areas.

So he got the same thing.

It looks like a hair, you know, so super fine hairline crack right back there.

And I get it.

I get it.

When you were telling me about it, so I'm going to tell everybody the same story, you know, and in my early days of using the torch, I did the same thing.

And it took me a lot to realize that as an example, I thought to me, I was telling you in the corners, because I was thinking like, oh dude, who cares about this spot?

This is going to go under the backsplash or whatever the case may be, you know, duh, you know, I only need to worry about the sink and you know, maybe the area where people are going to set the, the soap dish or whatever the case may be.

And so I was avoiding spots that I just didn't feel need.

It wasn't necessary.

And then that's where I would get the little cracks.

I'm like, what the hell, dude?

So then I learned like, no, man, now I'm the opposite.

I'm very mindful of going all the way through the areas that I don't think was necessary, but they really are because it keeps a complete evenness.

And when, just so everybody knows, the evenness we're talking about is, you don't want to shock the concrete, that's all.

And if you're shocking it by having a little bit of heat there and no heat there, and we've all seen this in specifically outdoor fire tables, and like, oh, it must have been the concrete.

Why did it crack?

No, because it was uneven.

Yeah, it was cold concrete, and the flame was only heating this one spot.

Yeah, one spot, whoo, yeah, there you go.

Or vice versa, the flame's going the other, oh, it couldn't have been, man, the flames are all going the other direction.

Well, in that case, yeah, you still, you got a hot spot, a cold spot.

It just shocks the concrete.

That's what happened to me.

It cracked where I was not torching.

That's where it cracked.

It wasn't from the heat, it was from the lack of heat that created the problem, because I was heating everything around it.

You know, so another thing was, the good thing was they were just microscopic.

And once it was sealed and done, you can't even see them, you know, they were totally gone.

But I learned my lesson, it was a lesson that I've never realized before, because I never did that.

I never skipped an area when I was torching, you know, so.

Well, I posted some videos on the ICT Forum, I don't know, a week or so ago, because I happened to be talking to somebody else about a similar situation.

And you know, I guess we should all do this more often, is a lot of conversation came up, either related to the torch itself, or controlling the flame, because someone else, gosh, I can't remember his name, but we've talked about him, you know, he was using the big weed torch, holding the torch up over his head, you know what I mean?

And was this Jonnie Blout?

Jonnie?

Blout, yeah, yeah, yeah.

With no control to the flame.

And again, dude, God bless you, bro.

Just get after it.

That dude does YOLO.

I mean, he's like, I love it.

He was posting something about, he was wanting to ask people how to do stuff.

And I said, you know, that's, I don't discourage that, but you're so new and that's actually a benefit because you might invent a whole new way to do something because you don't know.

If you hear from all these people, all their ways of doing it, that's going to stop your creativity of approaching it in a different way.

So not that it's a bad thing, but you're in this magical place right now where what you don't know can actually help you because you might come up with a whole new approach that nobody's ever thought of because you're in that place.

So anyways, but yeah, I love that guy.

He's fearless.

No, I agree.

So I saw that.

And then per a couple, you know, very minor tech related conversations that I had with sealer and torching and so forth and so on, it led me to these are actually videos I've made for him to just say, Hey, you know, here's some variations of how I do it.

In fact, Seth Taylor was one of them.

He hit me one.

So I literally sealed a sample for him to walk through and go, you know, this might be what you're missing and so forth and so on.

And wise, but that brought up a lot of conversation and still did.

So I've gotten all kinds of messages related to the torches, which if anybody knows, you know, that the ones that I recommend and still recommend or specifically from a company called Self-Lame Engineering, and I know a lot of people gone to Harbor Freight and so forth, or they're still using a weed torch.

My point being is I am going to continue more videos like this in the approach that it's not a question of people not having success, but how do you even improve your success beyond what you're doing?

Why do I choose torches that have, I refer to it as the regulator on the handle.

In fact, Alla came back and she's like, well, I looked up a bunch of those.

They all have a little knob on the handle, but no, those knobs are not, they don't control the flame intensity.

That's what I found.

And we even in the ones, who was it?

I think Dusty.

And I was down here at Flying Turtle.

Same thing.

He had one off Harbor Freight.

And look like, no, I don't even know what that knob does.

You can't control nothing.

In fact, man, I hate to say I was laughing, but I walked in there and I brought all my stuff down because I'm like, you know what?

I got the afternoon, guys.

You guys want to just seal something together like, Oh, Jon, that would be amazing.

OK, cool.

So I walked in, although I'd loaded all my stuff.

To be quite frank, I wasn't really intending to use mine, but at the same time, because I hadn't done anything with those, I've talked to him quite a bit, so I knew what they were doing.

They're very successful in what they're doing.

But, bro, I'm telling you, man, I almost lost my shit when I walked in there.

And he's using, it was a Harbor Freight one, full blast, just going after it.

I'm like, whoa, dude, you haven't heard anything with that so far?

He's like, well, I find if I hold it way up here, I move it fast.

And I'm like, oh my God, man.

Kind of like what we were just saying a minute ago with you and the ice.

When I'm sealing, I need it to be doodly-doo.

You know what I mean?

I don't, I need it to be, I'm one of those that I don't want to stress.

Yeah.

I don't want to stress about the, worrying about cracking something.

I don't want to stress over the heat.

I don't want to any of that stuff.

So I was explaining even to you and Joe, I called it, you know, Joe and I were talking about this.

So on these flame engineering ones, I'm going to call them a trigger.

Is flame engineering Red Dragon?

Cause I have Red Dragon.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

So flame engineering, their brand is called Red Dragon.

Yeah, you're right.

Yeah.

So I have Red Dragon torches.

But yeah, it has, it has a, has a handle that goes full blast.

Yep.

And then it has a dial that will set the flame when you're not pulling the trigger all the way down to nothing up to full blast.

So it's a range.

Yes.

Yeah.

And that's what I was talking to Joe about too.

And he's like, you do what?

And I'm like, oh yeah.

I said, do you, do you hold the trigger the whole time?

He's like, yeah.

And I'm like, oh heck no, dude.

Now, so I only pull the trigger to light the torch.

And that has the big or the, I call it the utility torch, the big or the little torch, I'm going to say 50,000 BTU and I think 800,000 BTU tortures.

That sets it on full, full blast.

And then I dial the little, again, whatever, knob controller, regulator, whatever we want to call it on the handle, I back it off, I release the trigger, and then I adjust that knob to the flame intensity that I am going to use.

And then from that point on, I'm not touching that trigger again until I'm ready to light it again.

You know what I mean?

Because then I just shut the regulator off at the tank when I'm done.

Yeah.

You just shut it off at the tank, to shut it off.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're setting, you're setting, you're setting the flame intensity at about 75% of full blast, right?

Well on the small one, so on my small utility, yes.

I back it off.

It's probably somewhere I'm going to say 65 75% of actual intensity.

And that allows me to even with small pieces, man, I just, you know, allows me just to like, yeah, you know, very methodically, very simply hit my temperatures.

And I'm going to walk through some of the things that I found and why this works for me simply.

When I back that intensity down, I can move that torch.

In this case, I'm talking about the small utility torch over say a vanity or whatever the case may be.

And we've done it in cast in place projects where now I can move over the top methodically, hit my catalyzing temperatures and never have to worry about overheating the concrete.

You know what I'm saying?

So zippity doo dah, it's like it's almost mindless the way it works.

Okay.

When it's not that, meaning now I'm full pull trigger and really going after it, the concern for me and really it's probably my impatience is I don't want to have to go over it so many times that now I've heated up the total concrete and now I have to walk away for 20 minutes to let the concrete cool back down.

You know what I'm saying?

You know, I'm one of those that like, no, when I just finished an application, I want to go over and rinse my roller, rinse my rags, you know, whatever, change the concentration in my spray bottle or my pump up sprayer.

And within whatever amount of time that takes me to do it, let's say five or 10 minutes or whatever.

I'm back on another application, not trying to figure out how to twiddle my thumbs or get on TikTok because, oh crap, I had to like go over.

And that's what I think his name is Dale.

That's what he was doing with the big torches.

He's waving it so fast, but he's got to go over it so many times to actually hit those temperatures that in that period of time, it's concrete's gone from 75 degrees up to 105 degrees, meaning the total concrete, not just the surface temp.

And now he has to walk away for it to let it get back down to 85 degrees.

And I'm like, oh yeah, no, no, I'm not doing that.

So now on the big, on my big torch, I'm going to say I'd probably dial it back to more 55, maybe, you know, 55, 65 in the intensity, so that I can do the same thing.

You know, I can just very slowly go over this thing, again, for the same reason.

I just want to hit the temps.

If I'm doing a cross, I call it a crosshatch pattern.

We all know what that is.

But if I'm going left to right, left to right, front to back, front to back, you know, right to left, right to left, and then back to front, back to front, in those amount of time, I don't want to heat the total concrete up by more than maybe a few degrees, just because I'm hitting my surface temperatures.

I find when I have those flames on high intensity, I have to go over it much quicker.

So I have to go far, just too many times, and I'm risking warming the total concrete, which means I don't have the patience for waiting for the concrete to cool back down.

So I would rather just not heat it up.

So that to me is one of the major reasons of having the right torches.

Yes, they are more expensive.

The Red Dragons, they do have on Amazon now, too.

Yeah, I bought mine on Amazon.

I mean, they're expensive, but it's buy once, cry once.

You buy it, you have it.

Yeah, something else I bought on Amazon today, Jon, it came in today, was I bought a splitter for my tank and they each have an individual shut off, but I'm going to hook up the big torch and a little torch to the tank because the problem is switching it over.

You're like, oh, I'm going to use a small torch.

I have to get a wrench out.

I'm not going to take this thing off.

You know, it sprays gas in your hand and that stinks.

And yeah, whatever.

So really didn't your Red Dragons come with a quick release?

No.

Mine don't have quick releases.

Really?

No, mine don't have a quick release.

But even if they did, it would still be...

It's just one more thing that you'd probably just say, I'm just going to use whatever torch is hooked up, right?

Instead of whatever.

Because you have the other one hanging on the wall and you're just like, oh, whatever, I'll just use this.

But I'm going to put the splitter on the tank.

I'm going to weld up a little cart, put the tank, put wheels on the cart and have little hangers on it where I can hang the torches and wind the hoses up.

But I can switch back and forth between a big torch, little torch on whatever I'm doing.

And it's going to be super easy.

And I won't have any excuse for using a wrong torch.

So the splitter, yeah, it was like 30 bucks on Amazon.

No, that's smart, man.

That's smart.

I still use the quick releases, but yeah, I'm totally down with it.

And per our conversation, this is how most of my projects go, is if I do use the big torch, then I only use it on the raw concrete initially to change the surface tension of the water.

Then I do it after the 3 to 1 and the 2 to 1 protect applications.

After that, because typically when I've done that, the concrete has gone from, let's say, a 65 to 75 degree zone up.

Now it has raised the total concrete by maybe 5 or 10 degrees, so the concrete itself is 80-ish.

Then I switch everything to my small handheld torch for the same reasons I just described.

It allows me to finish those last applications with the Fusion, and at the most, the total concrete jumped up 5 degrees over 3-4 applications.

So it's just, I'm done sealing.

For me anyway, it's just more efficient.

It speeds me through the process.

And I'd say the same thing if I had multiple pieces going, which I really don't have that anymore because I'm just doing a one-piece, you know, I mean a vanity of project at a time, then it would be the same thing.

I would still switch to the smaller torch for the same reason.

By the time I'm done with the multiple pieces and come back, I'm already ready to start the next application and not have to take a break and walk away.

Yeah, smart, smart.

Well, having the two torches, because you always find reasons to not do it the right way.

You know, you're always in your mind, you're like, yeah, whatever, but having both torches hooked up, there's no excuse to not do it the right way.

So I'm excited about that.

The other thing that you mentioned, which I never even considered, was cleaning the torch.

It builds up inside the tube where the flame ignites, it builds up like soot, soot, soot, soot.

It's like, it's like a des moines.

Even in the orifice.

Des Moines, orifice.

Des moines, that's a hard word, but the soot, it builds up in there.

And I never really thought about it.

And you're like, yeah, you should clean it out.

And so I got some carb cleaner and cleaned it out, took a stainless steel scrub brush, you know, scrubbed it really good, cleaned it, carb cleaner again, then ignited it and ran it full blast for a minute or two to really get rid of any carb cleaner.

But it's so much cleaner now.

It had really built up in there and I didn't even think about it, but that's something you should do as well.

Maintain your torches, keep them clean.

You don't have to do it every time, but maybe every 10 projects, clean them up a little bit.

So they're not building up that residue.

Well, it definitely does it.

I mean, if anybody looks, when you get the brand new ones, when they come brand new, they're painted.

Oh yeah, you got to run them for a little while before you start sealing because you don't want that.

Yeah, inside the bell and anything.

So the moment you start using them, it's already building up the potential of, who was it, Ian Windlow just a minute ago, right?

He was sealing something and just, you know, he didn't, it's like it ends up faint, so you don't totally notice it until you notice it.

Well, you notice on white, you notice it on white.

You don't notice it on any color because it's it's minimal, but on white, you'll start to see like a haze.

You're like, what is that?

Yeah, what is that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's what it is.

Yeah.

So then, you know, keep everything clean.

I certainly do.

But the same thing.

I can't say, oh, because, oh, gee, you know, Jon, I just pre-thought of it.

No, man, because I had it happen to me.

I think I talked about, I even called the guys at flame engineering and like, uh, man, I think I need to buy a new torch.

And he's like, why?

And I'm like, yeah, you know, it's doing this and whatever, dude, you know, just send me a note.

No, John, just pull the bell off.

You know, we'll send you a new orifice if you think it needs it.

But so can break cleaner, clean it all out, put it back together.

And yeah, sure enough, even the flame intensity with the whole flame was cleaner.

Because I don't know if people notice that too.

It should have a nice blue flame and then kind of on the edge, the red tips as it gets dirtier and dirtier, your blue flame gets smaller and smaller.

And let's say the sooty ends of the red flame get bigger and bigger.

And that's a problem.

So you use brake cleaner, you use carb cleaner.

Carb cleaner, I did some research, carb cleaner is better removing like a soot buildup than brake cleaner, supposedly.

I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know either.

That's just what I use, but I don't mind getting a carb cleaner.

Yeah, well either one.

Either one, clean it, brush it, clean it again, run the torch a little bit to get any residue out, and it's gonna be a lot better.

So there's that.

Next thing, Jon, on my list of things is Cerakote Paint Sealant.

You know, we've talked about the ceramics in the past.

Gion was one we were using.

Some people had some issues with Gyeon.

Turned out they actually didn't have issues with Gyeon.

They just weren't catalyzing the sealer enough with the torch, right?

So it wasn't the ceramic that was giving them problems, that they didn't torch it enough, the sealer.

But anyways, that's neither here nor there.

But Cerakote is the ceramic that you like, and you get it on Amazon.

Cerakote Platinum Paint Sealant comes in a little spray bottle.

It's like 20 bucks, 30 bucks, somewhere around there.

But anyways, I applied it to these sinks today.

And it's just another little layer of protection that you can have the clients do once a month and just keep the hydrophobic...

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, just it repels water.

And speaking of that...

I want to put this out there.

Go ahead, Jon.

Again, there was a nice back and forth on the...

Maybe it was on the Kodiak, I don't know, about just the idea that, you know, when you and I promote things or discuss things that, I don't know, in some way, we really need to keep everybody updated and so forth.

And first of all, I think that's awesome, but that's also why forms, you know, all of us should be updated.

But I just want to make it clear that even from the very beginning, Gyeon or Gyeon, G-Y-E-O-N is one of the best products.

When I say best products, again, because it had the internal water repellents and comparatively speaking, most of those into the products are made with solvents.

So, they had the least toxic version of a solvent which was in their product.

But I still don't like that.

I mean, I'm just going to say, anybody who's talked to me, I'm not a fan of solvent-based uses.

I don't like their toxicities.

I don't like their smells.

And then with that, people were, right?

I think a lot of Canadians couldn't even get it.

So now they were trying to willy-nilly find something else.

And had even harsher solvents.

And anyway, it was a real pain in the butt.

And from the very get-go, we were very forward with everybody to let, that, hey, moving forward, we need an internal solution to this.

And I don't want to make my own ceramics, which I can with SiO2s.

But that to me was never the answer.

The answer was coming up with a ceiling technology that bridged the gap between, in a way, creating our own version of a ceramic coat or ceramic seal, and along with the whole colloidal-based technologies.

And so that's the direction we went.

Why, and that's my long way of explaining, why the Cerakote?

Why is Jon, why is that something like?

Well, take a look at it, man.

Look at the SDS, and I've talked to the company.

Not only is it incredibly simple to use, like ridiculous, spray a little in a cloth, mist a little, any client can do that.

There's, it's not a toxic substance.

So that to me, the toxicity or lack thereof rules out.

It's easy to acquire for any client, and they can maintain it, maintain it in their own homes without risk of, you know, funny smelling stuff or hey, I set this and I left it too long and it ate through, you know, because the solvents, I mean, it's a really nice clean product.

Maybe there are more out there that people intend to use.

I don't know, but I can tell you, I am not running the gambit of a thousand different ceramics out there or, you know, they call them ceramics.

I'm not doing it.

So this is the one that I found.

I like it.

It's clean.

It's easy to use.

Clean meaning non-toxic.

So that's what I've been using.

And that's what I'm recommending to you.

Well, the benefit of it is it's readily, as you said, readily available, but it's also inexpensive.

The Gion was like a hundred bucks for a little tiny bottle, and everybody threw a fit about it, right?

Oh my God, it's, you know, it's tiny and it's a hundred bucks.

This is like, I think, 19 bucks.

And there's no customer that's not going to buy it, you know?

But yeah, you kind of hit on it in the beginning, that some people are saying that we should send email blasts and whatever.

Listen, we talk about, we have the podcast, it's a free podcast, you don't have to pay for it, we put it out there.

It's up to you to listen.

Listen, don't listen, that's up to you, whatever.

We have forums, be involved, get on or don't, that's up to you.

But it's your own responsibility to stay abreast of information.

You have a responsibility, we all have a responsibility, to stay updated, or not.

You don't have to, but it's your responsibility.

The other thing is, we do our best to share helpful information.

That's all we're trying to do, is share helpful information.

But it's still on you to do your due diligence.

It's on you to do testing in your shop, with your conditions, with whatever products you're using, and make sure it works for you.

And mileage may vary, as they say.

It may work for you, it may not, but that's on you to figure out.

So if we share something helpful, don't beat us over the head with, it didn't work for you, and now you're mad at us.

We're just trying to help, bro.

We're doing our best to be helpful.

So, you know, take it for what it is.

Well, that's the one thing I was gonna add in is, well, two things.

I certainly understand.

I really do, I certainly understand.

And at least for a few people, they were like, well, hey, you know, an email would work better for me, because it is hard to keep up with all the podcasts that you guys do.

And I think, but lately, right, isn't it being converted over to a text?

So that should make it easier to like search words and stuff, right?

I don't know, I'm just asking you, Brandon.

I mean, sort of, not really.

You know, it's still, yeah, I mean, if you get on Spotify and you're listening, it's gonna be auto transcribing.

Spotify does that now.

I think Apple does it as well.

So on your phone or on your computer, it'll be given the words, but I don't think you can search it.

I don't know.

Oh, really?

Okay.

So what I'm saying is I can understand that that's tough and maybe you don't keep up with them.

And then at the same time, hey man, I get it, right?

Especially when the forums are busy.

Now there's, there's really only three or no, four that I pay attention to anymore.

So anybody listening, if you want to get any input from me, there's really only four.

Gabe's, I still check out all the time, the Kodiak, the ICT and the Concrete and Tile.

I've really walked away from, from the other concrete related ones.

I mean, as example, I think a good group of dudes put one together and the whole thing turned into one company putting sale ads.

That's it.

Like legit, if you looked at it, the, and, and guys are still doing some stuff and kudos to them, but like everything was, and I'm not knocking the one company doing the advertising.

I don't care.

I think it's awesome that they're doing it.

Great for that.

But there wasn't much interaction on the other four that I pay attention to, I have to admit, yeah, man, the information can move pretty quickly.

And before you know it, we're talking about something and maybe you weren't there for a couple of days.

And now it's eight posts down and it's hard to keep up with.

So Hey, how about an email?

You guys, my answer to that is this.

I haven't posted on that.

I get it.

I totally understand.

And we legit tried it, right?

We were doing an email sign-up through Kodiak.

And again, awesome to everybody.

But yeah, we got a little bit, you know, sand kicked in our face over that.

Yeah, dude, I'm getting too many emails.

So it's like, bro, I sent you one.

And then just so you know, I can see who unsubscribed.

And I'm like, really, dude?

I've known you for 20 years.

Really?

You unsubscribed from my email?

I'm going to resubscribe you back.

I'm going to go back in or resubscribe you.

So, I mean, it's somewhat humorous, but at the same time, I understand.

And it just becomes a situation where, at least for us, we'll continue to try, we'll do everything we can.

I mean, here we're doing a podcast.

It's going about 9:30 a.m.

knowing that I'm probably going to be a few hours longer at the shop trying to get done what I got to get done.

And that's okay.

But at the same time, everybody listening at man, you know, we do this for the joy and the love of the craft of helping people, helping people be successful.

And I'm trying to put a halo over my head, because certainly we have products that we want people to use as well.

But there's only so many hours in the day.

You know what I mean?

And that is what it is.

But we will continue to try.

Maybe we will start an, you know, an email thing again.

No, we won't start an email thing again.

No, no, we won't.

Jon, this podcast, Jon just records a podcast, then it's on me to edit the podcast.

That's another two to three hours, right?

So every time we do a podcast, it's four to five hours of my day to do one podcast.

And we have hundreds of podcasts, like 150.

So do the math, that's like 750 hours of my life so far I've spent on a podcast.

I'm happy to do it.

But like you said, there's only so many hours in a day, and I do have a job making concrete for clients.

I don't have time to send emails and all this stuff.

We do our best to be helpful.

That being said, speaking of doing our best to be helpful, I posted my care and maintenance instructions that I give to my customers on Concrete Confidential.

This is a Facebook group, Concrete Confidential, where makers push the craft of Kodiak Pro page on Facebook.

So if you're not on the Kodiak Pro page.

That's awesome, really?

You did that today?

I did it yesterday.

So I posted it.

And you know, again, it's just a lot of guys out there, you probably just piece-milled some care and maintenance that you give to your customer.

And I'm a big advocate for good contracts.

When you start the project, give them a good contract that protects you, protects them, everybody's on the same page.

But at the end of the project, when you're finished, give them good care and maintenance instructions so there's no you didn't say.

I didn't know.

I wasn't made aware that I can't put unglazed ceramics on this and leave it for six months and it was going to create a problem.

I didn't know I couldn't use this as a cutting board.

I didn't know I couldn't use a comet cleaner and an abrasive pad to clean this.

Put all that into care and maintenance and give it to the customer.

But have a very cohesive and comprehensive care and maintenance instruction set.

So I posted mine.

You know, I was thinking like, should I post this?

Because you kind of feel protective of it, you know?

It's like kind of proprietary.

But then like if it helps somebody, help somebody.

Like, why do I care?

Why do I care if somebody like just cuts and paste my care and maintenance?

I don't care.

It doesn't change anything.

So I posted it.

So it's on there.

If you want to go look at it, download it, whatever, use it as well.

Send me a copy too, man.

And I'll load it up in the file section on the ICT page as well.

You can download the file.

It's on Kodiak Pro.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Well, I might want to make some changes.

Well, then you do that yourself, Jon.

And I'll send you an email about it as well.

Can you send me the document version?

Yeah, I'll send you the email.

No, it's not a document.

I did it in Adobe Illustrator, Jon, because it's graphically laid out and you couldn't do it easily in Word or whatever.

So Karen, that's all right.

Okay.

Last thing, and dude, we're running out of time on this.

Maybe we'll save, let's use the Diamond Pads conversation for next week because that's going to be a long conversation.

So we'll save that one.

Yeah.

So we'll save that for next week.

And a funny one.

I called him up, man.

I just started laughing, but I won't get into it right now, but it was pretty funny.

Yeah.

So anything you like that you want to share with our listeners.

Somebody brought this up the last class I had.

I was talking to the guys, like, hey dude, on the podcast, sometimes you and Jon do things you love.

He's like, keep doing it.

I love that part.

I was like, yeah, we should do it.

We don't do it all the time, but is there anything that you love that you want to share, Jon?

Well, I don't know about love, but so here's one.

My son and I have been on a real push to getting, I hate to use the word getting shape.

I mean, we do work out, but let's just be honest.

I'm just being totally straight.

I got a little, a little saddlebag going, a little of the old fanny pack, etc, etc.

And even though, man, my son's as strong as a freaking ox.

I mean, I only look back, I hate to use the word I wish, right?

But good Lord, man, I wish I was, I wish I was his size at 17.

I had been crushing it, son of a gun.

But anyway, we've been on a push and hang on, I got to get it so I don't mess it up.

Give me, so you talk for 10 seconds.

I want to go pick it up.

No, I see it.

I'm sorry.

Okay.

So the difficulty I have in this, if you look everywhere, right, we're supposed to eat enough protein, protein, protein, protein.

Well, I'll be honest with you.

Big meals is really tough for me.

So we picked up this, it's called Perfect Aminos.

And I've been using that.

And that's EAA, Essential Amino Acids, right?

Perfect Aminos.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's got the full compliment and, you know, anyway, blah, blah, blah.

It's like 11 amino acids.

Right.

So I would say that's one thing for me that has helped dramatically to get the proper amount of protein in without having to consume steak and chicken.

Let me ask you this, Jon.

Are you doing the powder or the capsules?

See, again, I like the powder.

I know you did.

Dude, the powder.

The powder is like rotten meat.

It is such a horrible, horrible tasting product.

Like I've been meaning because they have a capsule as well.

I've been meeting order capsules and go that.

I got those in for aim.

I ordered some of those in for aim.

Yeah.

For the women, right?

Yeah.

For the women.

For the ladies, they take the capsules.

The men take the powder.

No, bro.

I tried the powder.

It was rough.

It was tough to.

Really?

Yeah.

We finally, my son felt that.

Here's the one I found rough.

The berry, the mixed berry.

I'm sorry, whatever company, I forget.

Health, that's disgusting.

The berry is disgusting.

And kudos to anybody's like, man, berries are my favorite.

Okay, man.

No.

So we do the vanilla or the chocolate.

And so what I do is my first cup of coffee in the morning, a scoop of that, a scoop of MCT, you know, as my creamer and a little bit of milk.

And it's great.

Would milk be the creamer, honestly?

What's that?

You're putting milk in there.

Well, it probably does.

I'm just, you know, I've never been, I like coffee, but I'm just not a, I've never been a coffee fan.

No, you don't.

No, you don't.

No.

You don't.

Yeah.

I went to Starbucks with my old employee, Christian.

I used to always get a mocha.

I've already told this story, but I'll tell it again, because you might have a new listener.

And I'd get a mocha and I'd get it with coconut milk and I'd do half the chocolate, you know, or half the sweetener, you know, I don't want it too sweet.

And no whipped cream.

Can I get a mocha?

And Christian is standing there, and dude, Christian, he didn't hold back at all.

And he was always angry.

And he just goes, either you like coffee or you don't!

I was like, I'll take a cold brew black, thank you.

And that was the moment I switched.

Dude, you let the pressure get to you.

He shamed me.

He shamed me.

In the same way that with alcohol, I remember I was at Applebee's once, and I got a mudslide at Applebee's, which was like ice cream and chocolate sauce.

The whole bar was dying laughing when the bartender brought it over.

I was like, can I get a mudslide?

And after that, I just wanted a straight whiskey, just straight whiskey.

I was like, that's it, I'm done.

Straight whiskey.

So straight whiskey, straight cold brew, no sweetener, no cream, no sugar.

Here's a simple one.

Do you like chocolate?

Do you like chocolate?

I like dark chocolate.

OK, so you do like dark chocolate.

Yeah.

But you're not going to eat dark cocoa.

Well, in other words, no, no, I do.

The butter and no, no.

But I get like the 80 80 percent, 85 percent cacao.

And, you know, it's pretty bitter, but it's good for you.

And I like it.

So but it's an acquired taste.

You don't.

But what I'm saying is you're not going to pick up your cocoa and pound down a spoon in that and go black as I look at.

Oh, man.

So I look at it the same way.

I don't overdo it with milk and stuff.

But yes, I definitely I like the way it takes just the edge off of it.

And and it's great.

And I'm going to lie.

So back to Christian.

Hey, man, suck it up.

I used to be, you know, oh, my God, dude, I would I would drink so many mochas a day.

It was ridiculous until my belt loops.

Oh, apparently, this is what mocha does to you.

Yeah.

So yeah.

So now I'm in the process of cutting down the number of belt loops that I have going.

Dude, we went to a place called Nifty Nut House here in Wichita.

Never been there.

It's like some kind of, you know, gift shop candy store.

It was massive and they have just like all this by the pound candy, like hundreds of varieties.

It was massive.

So I got like dark chocolate coated coffee beans, espresso beans, you know, all that kind of stuff.

Those are good, yeah.

Oh, they're delicious.

But yeah, my belt loops are getting tighter.

I gotta lay off on these things, man.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm with you.

So no, perfect aminos, man.

If someone wants, if you want to get your proteins in without having to, you know, feel like you're walking around all day, like, you know, you had thanksgiving meals.

It's been working great for me.

All right.

So my favorite thing this week, Jon, I'm listening to audiobooks and I'm listening to a Stephen King one now.

It's good.

It's called, it's not The Shining.

It's called Sleep Doctor, but it's about it's like a it's like a after story about The Shining.

But that's not the one I want to talk about.

He has another audiobook called You Like It Darker, Stephen King, and it's narrated by this guy Will Something.

I don't know his last name, but it's a series of short stories.

And if you have Spotify Premium, you can listen to a couple of audiobooks every month for free.

I highly encourage you.

It's a great listen.

I've listened to it on long drives, and it's like nine or ten short stories each one.

You know, some are maybe an hour, but some are only like ten minutes.

But really good, super good.

The narrator is phenomenal.

So You Like It Darker, Stephen King, audio book on Spotify or Apple, you can buy it.

Totally worth it.

It was really good.

So that's my thing.

I'm listening to this other one right now, but You Like It Darker was really good.

Worth listening to.

Cool.

Yep.

All right, Jon, well, let's wrap it up.

I got to start editing, and then I got to get to work.

All right, buddy.

All right, buddy.

Till next week.

As always, good talking to you.

Yep.

Adios.

Adios.