Concrete Conversations: Coatings vs. Sealers, Rebar Placement, Polymers, and Industry Icons

Welcome to the Concrete Podcast! Tune in as we delve into the intriguing topic of Coatings vs. Sealers - unraveling their nuances and distinctions. Ever wondered about the optimal placement of rebar in concrete? We've got you covered with expert insights. Discover the role of polymers in decorative concrete applications. Plus, explore the impactful contributions of industry icons like Buddy Rhodes and Cheng. Stay tuned for exciting updates, including the convenience of booking freight directly through our website during checkout on Kodiak Pro.

Don't miss out on these captivating discussions and updates! Tune in to the Concrete Podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or SoundCloud. Hit that subscribe button to stay informed and inspired by the world of concrete craftsmanship. 



Hello, Jon Schuler.

Brandon Gore How's it going, my friend?

Dude, I'm a year older.

Yesterday is my birthday.

I'm a year older and, you know, a little bit grayer Now.

I'm more of a distinguished gentleman every year.

I get, you know, a little bit more of a silver fox going, you know what I'm saying?


There you go.

So yeah, so anyways, but yesterday I went and saw Dune 2 on my birthday.

If anybody is into the Dune movies, I thought it was great.

I really liked it.

And you know, one of the things I love about these, these two new Dune movies is the architecture and the rammed earth.


That if you really look in the background, all the walls are made of rammed earth.

And we have Ramm-Crete, which is the thin panel rammed earth things we're doing with Maker Mix and Rad Mix.

But if you're into it, definitely watch Dune.

But pay attention to the architecture in the background, 'cause it's all rammed earth and it is beautiful.


It's really, really well done.

Very cool, man.

Very cool, yeah.

And I agree with you 100%.

It looks very.

What's the word?

I can't even think about it, but all the architecture is very very cool.

Yeah, and it's just beautifully shot.

You know the.



God damn, it's like a.



Big, heavy, like battered walls and thick walls and round rolling doors and just it's so cool.

It's just so cool.

So I really enjoyed it and I thought that, you know, it's a long movie, it's like 3 hours, but it's very fast-paced.


Dune 2 is like boom boom boom boom.

So I liked it.

I liked it a.


Go check it out.


So but you know that's that's what I did yesterday, but you have been busy the last couple weeks working on a new update for the website, which before we even go down this update, I just want to say I'm very proud of you, Jon.


I'm extremely proud of you because of all people.

We've been trying to hire somebody for months and months to do this freight plug insurance.


These freight plug insurance for the website because you know we, we talk to our customers and the biggest friction point has been when you place an order for Maker Mixer Rad Mix, you had to handle your own freight.


And the reason was the freight plug insurance that we explored in the beginning were very glitchy and all the feedback on these plug insurance was that they were incorrect, that all the rates were wrong.

So we set it up so people could schedule their own.

Another thing we didn't want to do too is we didn't want to be like a middleman and people thought we were like ripping them off, you know and inflating the price and all this kind of stuff.


So we just wanted to have complete transparency and we wanted people to feel good about it.

So we set up like that, but it was a friction point.

So when we talked to people, we're like, you know what, what, what can we do better?

And the response was unanimous.

I love the product, I hate dealing with freight.

And so it's been something we've been aware of, been working on, but we couldn't find anybody.


We kept, we kept putting fillers out there, asking people for references, all this kind of stuff.

So a couple weeks ago, John says.

I'm just gonna do it.

I'm gonna do it.

I'm like.

Screw it dude.

I'm doing it.

Oh, no, not John, dude.


John can't open APDF on his iPhone like John.


It's just scary, bro.

It's scary like, so I'm like, all right bro, you know, I wish you the best.

And you're like, I'm gonna do, I'm just, I'm dedicating, you know, you like took out like pretty much a whole week, like 8 hours a day to just work on it.

And I'll be damned if you didn't do it.


John got it done.

And so for the last, I don't know, week and a half now we've we it's kind of been like a soft rollout.

We didn't tell anybody but the freight options have been there, it shows up and so people have been booking freight and what we wanted to see is, are these freight quotes accurate, are they, are they right.


And so it goes to the website and it places a freight quote.

And then John's been contacting everybody and saying hey, does that look right to you?

You know, is that, is that what you're used to And across the board everybody said it's actually been lower cost and what they were paying before.

So that's great because according to everybody so far it's actually come in lower than what they were used to paying.


So good, great.

So anyways if you go to you can now book your freight.

Just be aware because a lot of people have placed an order in the last week and did not choose a freight option because they weren't aware when when John called say, hey, you know, we noticed he didn't book freight, They weren't even aware that was there.


So if you got used to the old process and you're just used to going to the website, book your own freight, now know there's a drop down and you can choose from R&L, Old Dominion or XPO, it'll show the freight rates to your location.

You can choose one of those or if you have one that you like, some people have like, you know, whatever some carrier they have a relationship with, you can choose both my own freight.


Yeah, if you want to do that.

But I think for most people, including me, I'm just going to choose one of the options well.

So far, with each person, it's it.

It's been a better rate.

Yeah, been a better rate, just easier.

I mean that's the whole thing is, you know, I was talking to Brandon Browning and he was telling me like how much he hates booking freight when he when he buys maker mix, it's just such a pain and you know, God bless Mike Wiggins at at E Shipping.


Super nice guy.

Super nice guy.

But every time I call him and I think everybody's probably had this experience.

Hey, Mike, I need to get a freight quote.

OK, Great.




I'm like Mike, just please.

Walk through the whole thing while you.


Just call me.

Just call me back.

Just get the rates and call me back.

Well, hold on a second.

I'm like, you know, you're telling me like you just put them on speakerphone and like keep working and then every now and then you'd be like, do you need something?

Mike, do you have a question?

No, I'm just, I'm just going through the settings.


So anyways, so if if you enjoy that, then keep doing it.

But if you just want to be able to book your freight to the website and and have it taken care of that way, that's an option now.

So we're trying to make it as easy and as low friction as possible for you to place your order.

Well, the key to it is when anybody does it, when you get to that last check out, there's two places in the shipping where most people you you're just used to just looking but read it.


There's it's there's literally a shipping method tab you can click on and then that'll open a drop down box or a drop down arrow in that same little area.

Click on that, it'll bring a drop down box.

Just be aware of Talk to Shopify and the the whole drop down.


They don't have it set up to automatically open.

So you need to open it when you actually ship out.

So I've tried to put the language in there to kind of key people in to open, actually open it up and look at the choices and hopefully moving forward we'll all get used to it.


But that's the way it's going to work.

And and I'm also going to say everybody bear with us for a little while because if I need to go in and alter some of the settings, let us know.

And like I just did for someone today and apparently he had his residential address in the profile, so I needed to update that to an actual commercial address.


So, so little things like this that probably Mike Wiggins dealt with and now it's coming directly off of the store.

So you know we're going to have some anyway.

So everybody bear with us.

We'll get through it and I think it's it's going to be great finally.



And a lot of people, I I think, yeah, they probably just put in their home address when they set up their account.

But you can log into your account and update your address.

So definitely do that.

Definitely update your account to be the freight address you want it shipped to instead of your home because you don't want to R&L truck to pull up to your house and some guy banging on your door like hey I got 4 pallets 4.


It's it's different rates too.

Residential is different than commercial.


So, so John, let's see here.

I have a, I have a list of things to talk about.

One is something that you've been chomping at the bit to talk about.

Yeah, which is sealers versus coding.


Somebody who hits you, Somebody hits you up and want to know the difference, Or was it?


And I get this constantly actually.

And I guess if it's, I shouldn't say it's a philosophy thing, but there's like a lot of things, there's a lot of misunderstanding between the terms like what is an actual sealer and what a coating are coatings considered sealers?


Is a sealer A coating And it it, let's say it gets confusing to people so that they're making the right choice for the right, I don't know, expectation or performance that they're looking for.

So yeah, did you want to talk about that?


I don't.

Want to talk about?

I want you to do it because like I said, to me, it's semantics.

It's just to me, it's coding.

Sealers, sealers, coding, whatever.

I don't.

I don't care.

But I know this is near and dear to your heart, and you do want to talk about it.

Well, it's only dear because it's.


I don't know.

I shouldn't say it's amazing, but there's a lot of mis misinformation and maybe it's all done intentionally, or maybe it's not.

Maybe it's not even misinformation.

Maybe it's just misunderstanding.

But so this falls directly on our philosophy.


And our philosophy is we believe in sealing concrete, sealing concrete.

And what does that mean?

Well, to seal the actual concrete, these are the talk again, let's say protections that are based on penetrating, soaking in and becoming part of the concrete.


That's the simplest way for me to to define a sealer.

It's still providing protection, but it's actually, again, let's say, absorbing in and becoming part of the concrete.

That is very different than a coating.


A coating is still providing protection, but the idea is specifically creating a film barrier.

A let's say you know, a plastic coat or whatever and everything falls in those, was going to be anything from, you know, thick covered ones, say like epoxies and polyureas to polyurethanes.


Anything that's basically just creating solely A barrier coating to the thing.

But the reason people get confused is you're not going to see the other products that are considered urethanes.

They're still going to call them sealers, right?


Like 327's a sealer, U seal's a sealer.

And the reality is those who are coating they're, they're literally coating the concrete to seal the concrete and actually be a what's considered a sealing technology would be all the way on the ends of basic penetrating.


It's like you know 511's or miracle seals or what would be some of the other ones, what bulletproof you know some of these kind of things And then hybrid technologies like reactive technologies I guess see densifiers couldn't even be in the sealer because they don't really protect but so that's sealers.


I shouldn't say versus coatings, but there's A to understand the differences that sealers are about penetrating, soaking, and becoming part of the concrete.

Coatings are literally barriers and they don't.

They don't have anything that let's say long term has to do with the concrete itself.


They're simply coating and creating a barrier on top of the concrete.

So they're not like they're not changing the concrete at all.

They're just a plastic film wrapping the concrete, and that provides the protection until that plastic film is no longer there, whether it's a braided off or peels off or just breaks down over time, whatever.


Wears through, yeah, Whatever the case may be, yeah.

I think we've all been to a restaurant or a bar that has a concrete countertop that has a coating on it.

And wherever the POS is or wherever the bar backs are, they're sliding drinks.

You can see that none of the sealer is there anymore and it's just totally gone.


So that or none of the coating.

So the concrete's not sealed.

It was coated and the coating came off and and you know left it exposed but.

Well and that came up specifically again to me with someone who was doing some a tub or maybe plans on doing several tubs.


I can't remember I'd have to look at.

But in our conversation he was looking at again a, a coding technology that he had referenced solvent based urethane or ICT and you know what what do you think John?

And I'm like, well, ultimately again, it's it's your decision.


But just realize the coating is solely A barrier.

And if the barriers ever, you know, pierced or what whatever happens over time, you know the concrete is still the concrete.

There's no protection built in the concrete.

With ICT, you're literally soaking it in and sealing the concrete to the best of your ability.


Which means over time, still things can happen, but between, you know, silenes, loxanes and, you know, the micronase, the silica, the colloidals, blah, blah, blah, it's actually altering the concrete over time.


So, you know, make your choice from there.

Yeah, but it is, it's it's a it's a question I get a lot and it seems a philosophical one sometimes, like, you know, sealers versus coatings.

But no, the reality is it's all a protection and two-part urethanes, epoxies, Polyespartix, you know any of these kind of things, you know they're they're coatings, we call them sealers.


But the realities are coatings, they, they are barrier protections and sealers would be silane, siloxane based things, you know, silicate based technologies and and so forth and so on getting even floral polymers which none of us use very much because they just don't last very long.


But yeah, those those are true sealers.

You're actually sealing the concrete itself, not necessarily just coating it.

Makes sense.

Well, you referenced the discussion on tubs which was on the Kodiak Pro discussion page I think on Facebook was somebody who was interested in tubs and one of their questions was all PVA fibers in an SEC mix was using all PVAS.


And there were some responses back that one response was the the tubs that failed in Australia that was the product, not the fiber.

But you know there this, that's part of the truth is partially true.

But all PVA SEC mixes are inherently flawed in some way for strength when it comes to a three-dimensional object like a tub.


If you're doing tile, OK, whatever, you know.

But if you're doing a tub that's going to be full of water, it's going to have that pressure pushing out on it, right?

All PVA is probably not the way to go.


What are your thoughts on that?

No, 100 percent, 100%.

So yeah, that boy, I could jump on this anywhere.


So number one, and we talked to this a few podcasts back about a company that was closing doors and we're having let's say finally in field.

The amount of catastrophes happening or or product failure happenings just pushed them to the point of closing doors happened to another company in Australia too.


And at least one of the comments was related to it was solely a product, which I guess kind of true, but I think the reading it they were blaming on the concrete product that they were using.

And again, that's partially true and we did talk about that they happened to be using a company's ECC admixture or ECC concrete.


They were using it in a trying to be a self consolidating kind of thing, which means they need more water, more plasticizer and these kind of things very much out of bounds of what the original attention in that product was truly made for.

So yes, #1, but also the number two was they were trying to utilize PVA fiber in that kind of casting technique.


And you know, again, I'm, I'm just going to, for us, people can say whatever they want to do.

Hey, at the end of the day you make your decision, but if you're going to ask Brandon and you're going to ask John Schuler, you know what's your recommendation for self consolidating and using PVA fiber, I'm going to say do it at your own risk because the reality is glass fiber continues to be, again, I don't even know, call it gold standard, the platinum standard, whatever you want to call it.


The mechanical fibers are #1 for that.

You put a fiber in there that's based on hydration based bonding and a fiber that's flexible like again, I can it to a rubber band and I I truly believe you're playing with fire.


That's all.

And if that's something somebody wants to do, that's awesome.

But if you have something like a, you know, a big tub or anything like that that you cast and it starts, you know, cracking and failing, then you know that I guess that's when we all look back and go, oh, why didn't I just use glass fiber?


Yeah, that's a good question.

Why didn't you just use glass fiber?

That would be the number one.

For people that don't know, the ECC mix that the company was using in Australia was a mix that you developed that mix, that mix was developed by John Schuler, I don't know how many years ago, 1214 years ago, 15 years ago.


It's been a long time at.

Least 15, Yeah.

There's not 16.


So you developed that mix, but you never intended it to be used in a way that it's being used.

And so there's a lot of bad information being perpetuated not by you, the person that developed the mix, but by companies that sell the mix or distribute the mix.


They're saying, oh, you can do this.

No, you can't or you shouldn't.

That's not what it was intended to be used for.

And if you do that, like you said, it's outside of the parameters of its intended use, and you're going to have issues by using it in that way.

Well I agree with that 100% and and even though I can you know step back for a second and go hey man since since Buddy Rd's product sold to another company it is it possible that this other company has made some modifications to it.


It's possible.

It is possible I'm I'm willing to put that on the table.

But at the end of the day let's just say the proof still shows based on a company that ended up closing doors maybe say going bankrupt, whatever you want to call it that still the intended use during that period of time meaning they were trying to use it in a self consolidating manner based on the amount of water and plasticizer and the combination with PVA fiber still continues to show that.


That is a no no, that's a no no and I wouldn't have recommended it then.

I certainly don't recommend it now.

And whether or not that company is continuing to say you can do it or you know, again, I guess a any company wants to show the versatility of their materials.


But at the end of the day, just realize that you're going to be taking that risk.

And again, I'm solely going to say right or wrong.

If you ask John Schuler, if you ask Brandon Gore, if you ask some other people who are familiar with using PVA fibers and self consolidating kind of situations, at least based on fiber alone, we're going to, I'm not going to say talk you out of it, but we're just not going to recommend it.



At all.

Yeah, yeah.

And then from there, if you want to use the materials based on a manufacturer's salesman's recommendations, well, then again, I'm just going to say you, you kind of take on your own risk.


And you certainly are more than welcome to do what you want to do.

There are other materials now without being all woo Hoo, you know Kodiak Pro.

There's other materials that are designed specifically for their ability to be more universally used, whether sprayed, cast, hand packed, troweled, whatever, the self consolidating.


And then with that, you'll still get the recommendations based on fiber use, because I'll say the same thing, even maker mix self consolidating, I would not champion the sole use of PVA fibers.

Know how?

No way.

Dude, somebody just text me.


I'm going to send you this photo.

Somebody just sent me a text.

He made a Ram Crete sink and it looks insane.

Apparently he's asking me a question really, of what to tag it with.

Texting them back.

Now I'm telling you, I've seen a lot of this stuff that guys are doing with the with the Ram Crete, everything from backsplashes to vertical panels, man, it's it's beautiful, beautiful to see what the guys are doing.


They're doing these thin panels and then, you know, backing it with fiber loads.

Really, really neat stuff.

Dude, I'm this is probably the coolest here.

I just saved the photos.

Let me text them to you.

These might be this is probably the coolest use of RAM Creed I've seen to date.


I just texted it to you.

Let me know when you get it.

It's sending right now.

Hold on, I I turned off my Wi-Fi because it interferes.

Let me turn it back on so it sends faster.

Just a little tidbit for anybody doing a podcast.


If you have your Wi-Fi on your iPhone and you get close to the microphone, it interferes goes.

So turn it off anyways, you should have it.

Oh, I see what you're saying.

OK, see, I was picturing just the sink.

Now I get it.


Is super cool?



Like a apron sink?

Yeah, and the whole front of it is Ramcrete and it looks insanely good.


That's crazy.

Yeah, I'm gonna, he's gonna post on Instagram and I'm gonna see if I can share it.

But it's beautiful.


It's absolutely beautiful.

Who's this?

I don't want to don't want to stay on the podcast until they post it, so let them let them post it.


This is like a reveal.

You don't.

You don't want to steal somebody's Thunder.


You don't.

Ruin the reveal.

Yeah, don't steal their Thunder.


Well, yeah, you know, Pvas use them.

Don't use them.

I'm not a huge fan of Pvas.

Used 100% on their own.

So a blended glass.

We have another guy, Alberto Croco down in Australia and he's making a piece and he's using all Ppas and he's asking us, am I going to be OK?



But put some glass in there And his hesitation was, well, what if a fiber shows or fiber show, then embrace it.

Like embrace it.

Yeah, make it part of your look.

If that is the material, the nest of material.

If you have honesty materials and a client comes in to look at the chair and there's some fibers that are shown because you're doing a super deep exposure, it's in a terrazzo finish, then let it be.


Embrace that aspect of it.

If if you're OK with it, they're OK with it.

If you treat it as a flaw, they'll treat it as a flaw.

That's just the way we did a. 100%, yeah.

There was a time PVA, one hundreds and I would load them so high and then grind it was the I mean and still is anybody who wants to do it and I'm guessing the four hundreds would do the same.


Makes this amazing.

I don't know.

I'm gonna call this modeled network.

Look, it's super, super cool.

But you know what I mean?

I guess if instead I stood back and like, Oh my God, look at I, I mean, I can see the fibers.


Well, yeah, it's the fibers creating the look, man.

You know what I mean?

And and I mean and it was done on purpose.

And I think that's a lot of us.

As I said, you know, we've all get out of our own ways.

You know that that a fiber or two shows up.


Yeah, well with rammed earth, there's a guy over in in Europe named Martin Rausch who is huge on unstabilized rammed earth, meaning it's just essentially soil.

You know, it's non organic soil, it's clay, it's silt.

And he mixes straw in with it, right, and and Rams it into these super thick blocks and they erode and they wear away.


They have no stabilization.

So they don't have any cement in it.

And that's his thing.

And he's big on it and he's booked up for years in advance and he embraces the material for what it is.

He doesn't make apologies for it, doesn't say, yeah, that wall that's all eroded away and it's got, you know, straw sticking out of it and gravel and you know, that's a defect.


No, he's like, that's, that's the material and it's beautiful.

And I love it.

And the clients like, I love it too, because that's the material because that's how you present it to the client.

And that's our job as artisans is to present honestly the material to the client and not feel bad about it, you know, So if you are doing a terrazzo finish, which I don't do, but if that is what you do and you're using glass fiber and you expose some glass fibers, that's the material.


Just say this is it.

And I love it and I think it's beautiful and the client would say the same thing.

You know, we talk about that in workshops sometimes about we've all had this experience at least once you're doing an installation.

If you're still doing installation, I recommend you don't.

But if you're doing installation and somebody on your team points out a flaw, right, So you're doing insulation and your helper can.


Actually introduce and point it out that's.

What I'm saying flaw.

Yeah, so you're you're doing install and your helper says, man, this looks really great, except for this one spot right here that we had to slurry and fill.

But everything else and the client's like, huh, what the the spot.


What spot?

Oh my God, Because you presented it as a flaw.

Had you said nothing, they would have loved it.

They would have loved it, but instead you pointed out the flaw to them and that's all they can see in their mind at that point.

Well, not only that, it's like all of a sudden this imaginary, you know, glass comes out, you know, big spyglass comes out and all of a sudden now that's all you see is flaws across the whole piece and you because you're looking for them right under the magnifying glass And like, no, no, I get it.


I totally understand.

And I'm still going to say 99% of it is on us And in what we create and how we introduce it and how we stand behind our products, our passion for what we're doing and so forth and so on.


Based on that, are there some fiber technologies that let's say, quote, UN quote, show up more than others?


Well, sure.

And that's based on the size of the fiber, right.

But in this case, since we're talking about glass fiber, if and again 99% on us, if we want to make a stealthier choice but still maintain the integrity and strength that we're looking for, well then use the half inch, the Owens Corning half inch.


They're little prickly needles are fantastic and there you go.

But at the end of the day, you've done the best you can.

It is what it is.

Embrace it for what you've done.

So using Alberto as the example man, and again, I could be wrong and I'm not trying to pump it up, but in a terrazzo look to have some of that not quote UN quote, accidentally show up, but have that as part of the look.


I truly think it would be pretty cool.

Yeah, I agree.

Well, I mean Eames, Herman Miller.

But the Eames chairs, those fiberglass shell chairs which are iconic, embrace the fiberglass.

You know, they used a transparent gel coat so you could see the fiber mat running through it.


They didn't spray a opaque gel coat and then and then do the mat.

No, they use transparent and you can see all the fiber matrix.

I have a lot of these at my house and I've vintage ones and I have new ones made by Modernica.

But the the fiber is embraced.

That's the material.


So again, I'm.

I don't do terrazzo finishes.

I hate grinding.

I hate the sludge I hate.

Dude, it's just not my jam.

But for some people, that's what they like.

That's their look.

And you should totally do it.

But yeah, embrace the material for what it is.

Don't try to make it something that's not.


Let it be what it is.

Let it be true to what it is.

Make it as good as you can.

Use the best ingredients you can.

Cast it you know, as well as you can.

Cure it, Seal it.

Do everything as good as you can, but let it be true to what it is.

Well, and that can continue, you know.


And under that circumstances, if a person decides to choose all PVA fiber, which again, when I use that word, remember, there's like 6 different PVA fibers.

But if you choose those PVA fibers and it does crack, well, then, you know, I guess in that case, I wouldn't call it a failure, like, OK, embrace it.


And that's what it is.

But in a tub situation, I would consider it a failure if the water from the tub ends up out on the floor, yeah.

Well, I mean I I think that the the bare function of a tub is to contain the water and and nothing else.


If that's all you're able to do is contain the water then it's successful.

You know on top of that if you can make a surface as durable and long lasting and aesthetically pleasing, great.

But at minimum, it needs to contain the water.

It needs a hold of water.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.


Well, unless you do it.

What's that Look where they break it all into pieces and then epoxy it all back?

Together, the whole Japanese thing, that pottery where they put it back together like gold, gold.

Right with Gold Leaf and the whole 9 yards I.


I don't know.

You like to try to pronounce the Japanese name, so don't you try to pronounce whatever it is.


No, I can't.

I butcher, destroy them.

Every time I watch HGTV, which I try not to, but every now and then you're flipping channels and HGTV, there's something on there.

It's every single time I've turned it on HGTV.


It's like we're going to be using this new Japanese technique called Shoshugi Bond where you char the wood.

I'm like, ah, you dummies, Shoshugi Bond.

Hey, that's not even the right term.

The Japanese are like, no, that's not, that's not what we call it.

But secondly, this, this has been going on now in the United States for 20 years.


You're not doing anything new, but every homeowner thinks they just discovered charring wood, right?

And they're going to do this on their DIY project.

I'm not a fan of it personally.

Well, I think it's great if it's done well.

You know, it's cedar.

I think traditionally it's cedar that's charred and then they do like the seed oil, linseed oil, a layer of that on top of it and it just weathers very gracefully over time.


But in the United States are just.

Taking not, not the whole thing.

Is this for pest control?


Don't dig it.

Well, that's part of it is pest control and it's also.

Seeing where any burnt wood's going to hold up to the elements.

I think it holds up fine because the wood underneath is still good, but the other thing it does is it makes it more fire resistant because it's already been charred, it's harder to get it to ignite again.


So that's the other selling point is it makes it more fire resistant and makes it more insect resistant.

But you know, at this point you watch HGTV and they're just taking Doug fir that they got at Home Depot and they're taking a weed torch and torching it.

And they're they're not even torching it near enough.


I mean, they're just barely torching it.

And then they put on the side of their house and looks horrible and they're calling it Shoshuki Bond.

I mean, it's just bastardizing a traditional Japanese technique, which is beautiful and done right and done well anyway.

So is it Shookie boogie bond?

Yeah, I I think that's the traditional term.


If you go to Japan, yeah, you should, you should bring that up to them when you go to Japan sometime.

So the next question that you received or you saw, I don't know where you saw it, but I made it on that list.

How close do you put?

I would call it rigid reinforcement, you'd call it primary reinforcement, whatever.


But you're going to put rebar, whether it's fiberglass, rebar, steel rebar, welded wire, fabric, some type of wire mesh.

How close can you put that to the surface and not have it ghost?

Well, actually in this one it was how close to the edge?

You know, like your face, face edges and and so forth.



Yeah, I.

Don't even know what the question was.

I just, I just wrote it down.

So what was the question that somebody asked?

Well, let's see.

Is 3/4 an inch from the edge too close?

This is for my first time precasting and he posted a couple pictures.


Looks like again he made a melamine box and he's using that.

I don't know.

I call it.

I call it Hogwire.

You know that kind of hog wire material, fencing material it was.

Probably more like a horse panel.

Yeah, something like that as as as reinforcement and you know again that whole another conversation.


So I'll just stay away from that one.

But the plain and simple fact is anybody doing primary reinforcement, if possible, you know, you you really again the whole idea is right back to primary reinforcement. 2 1/2 times its diameter is really as close as you want to anything 2 1/2.


So if it's AI don't know piece of half inch rebar, you know, yeah don't don't bring it any closer than probably an inch you know from your edge.

Inch, inch and a half, something in that neighborhood.

And if you can't you know because I'm trying to think like a drop face around a front sink or whatever the case may be, then you don't use something like that.


You use glass rebar, use that as your primary or your stiff, and then that kind of has a whole new set of rules and you really can get a lot closer without it ghosting.

Yeah, but in this case that's what he's using as a panelling, so I would never bring it within 3/4 of an inch.


There's too much of A risk of, you know, #1 not even doing its job.

So why is it there There, That's a big problem.

But #2, you could see where he clipped the ends.

So he's, I mean I don't know, looks like 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch, you know.


So that's way too close to the edge for me.

Yeah, it's just going to cause problems over time, you know, showing up as little crack or whatever the case may be.

So yeah, so the general rule is 2 1/2 times the diameter.

But again that's where steel based reinforcements.


There's so much of the fiberglass or glass based rebars available now.

Anybody should just be using that in my opinion.

When I first started I I took Buddy Rhodes very first class he ever offered.

This was way before fiber reinforcement was the thing.


This was you know, two.

I took his first class when I was saying 2001, 2002, somewhere around there.

I started my company in 2004, but I I took his.

I took his class several years before I started my company and I was actually a trainer for Buddy Rhodes products for a while for distributors.


When Buddy was rolling out his bagged mix in the very early days, I would go to distributors and teach workshops on it.

But what Buddy recommended back then was expanded metal lath which is used for stucco and it's like diamond lath and it's it's a very, very closed cell type material.


So it's not like a a welded wire fabric that has big openings.

So it's it's made for, you know, essentially trilling on stucco is what it's made for.

And Buddy would do let's say A2 inch countertop, he'd do one inch of concrete, then the expanded lath and then one inch of concrete And that was pretty much the worst thing you could ever do in the sense of you're putting it dead center of the which is offering zero reinforcement benefit.


The center of a slab is neutral.

So if you put it in compression or tension, if you're trying to, you know, push down to know the slab, there's there's no reinforcement that's engaging if it's in the center of the slab.

But the second problem with it was that mesh really created 2 shear surfaces.

It cut its surfaces in half, they didn't bond together.


The material didn't transfer through that lath, it, it created a shear.

And I know this because when I have pieces I have to remake and I break the slab, it would break it in the center of the slab like essentially be these two one inch pieces, it would come apart.

So they weren't bonding, which again is like the worst thing you could ever do.


So there was a moment in time where this whole notion of engineered concrete countertops kind of caught traction.

And there was a moment in time when that was a relevant discussion because the the thing that people didn't understand back in those days was where do I put the reinforcement, where do I put it?


Because back then it was a a rigid reinforcement, it was rebar or walled wire fabric.

So where in the slab do I put it?

You know, and and for the most part it's going to be towards the bottom of the slab because most things are going to be and compression.

You're gonna be spanning the countertop and people are gonna be standing in the middle and it's gonna be trying to bow down.


So you want the reinforcement to engage.

If it's a cantilever, then you want to come to the top of the surface because as you push down, it's gonna be trying to open up that top surface and you want the reinforcement there.

But for the most part you know that's that's what they're that's that was what was needed to know for a quote UN quote engineer concrete countertop.


Now once fiber reinforcement became the de facto material, all that went out the window and and that conversation at that point is essentially null and void.

There's no there's no point in having that conversation any longer because 99.9% of artisans in this community have moved away from using rebar or steel, steel reinforcement.


Now there are some occasions around a sink knockout around you know, something that is going to cantilever or span a long distance where you might want a rigid reinforcement but it's pretty pretty rare.

I I very, very, very very rarely do it.


And if I do do it, I do it mainly for what I'd call creep.

You know, let's say I do a table and that table is going to be overhanging the base two or three feet and I cast it using glass fiber.

Well, when I de mold it and I put it on the base, it's going to be dead flat for a while.


But over the years it's going to slowly sag down because it has flexibility.

And so in that case, I would use a rigid reinforcement, not to give the concrete more structure reinforcement, but just to help mitigate any creep over time.


And that's that's how I've used a rigid reinforcement is for that purpose and I've used it to create success.

I've had plenty of pieces out in the field that I did that with.

I go and visit them two 3-4 years down the road and look at them and they're still pretty darn flat.

There's ones that I did before that that I did not do that.


I have one at my house a a patio table, and I didn't use any ladder wire or any type of fiberglass rebar in it for that reason.

And the table on all the corners has probably dipped down 1/2 inch if I put a level across from one end to the other just because that's the nature of a fiber reinforce mix.


It's ductile, it's flexible and over time that will it will slowly deflect down.

So anyways, I guess that's my two cents on that.

Yeah, I don't think any of us are using much primary anymore.

Primary is like you just said anything that's rigid and long, any rebar like material, I mean fiber Technologies has you know pretty much in my opinion changed and saved the game 100% so much with any of these materials we were never ever, never really able to be as creative as we are with concrete if if we were, all of us were still trying to stay within the the boundaries if you will of the use of primary reinforcement.


Well, somebody posted on on our forum, on our forum, our group on Facebook, concrete countertops, concrete sinks, concrete tile page, somebody posted a picture of a DVDI did way back in the day how to do Geo Versi DVD and I wrote a, a comment about it essentially that I appreciate that because there has been an effort from some people to try to rewrite history to try to to either paint themselves or somebody else as you know originators of a technique or or you know they're the people that pioneered that have brought it to market.


But that was a good reminder and you know, I taught the first class for the industry on GFRC in October of 2005 and I somebody asked a question I'm like well.

Prior to that, weren't you?

Buddy had brought you on, didn't he, Anyway?

To teach GFRC.


Yeah, well, that happened down the road.

So October 2005, I taught the first class for concrete, countertop sinks, furniture, tile for GFRC.

That was the first class in the industry.

And then October, oh sorry, October, March 2009.


I taught the first class for Buddy Rhodes products on GFRC and so I looked up the emails.

I defined the date and but there's the e-mail from Buddy from March 2009.

Well, it was before that because class is in March 2009, but there was the first class for Buddy Rhodes products on GFRC and I taught the the Buddy Rhodes workshops on GFRC for many years.


But yeah, no.

So it's it's good occasionally to to look back and see the actual history of what happened, when it happened and that kind of stuff, so.

Well, good man.


Well, you know, I mean somebody, you know, it is what it is.



You know, like any industry, you know, there's egos and I don't know, just being egos of the individuals that people may either, you know, purchase from or do things.

But the reality is, we're all human beings and we all have egos.

And sometimes we all say things to try to hurt and disparage other people.


And then, you know, that's why.

Well, you know why?

Because we're human, that's all.

But I mean, there's there's facts, there's the actual facts of the history.

And then there's people that want to try to rewrite history.

And I know what the facts are.

You know what the facts are.

God, we've been here too long though.


That's the problem.

Yeah, but the facts are the facts.

I mean, to me, you know, I I get ego.

I think everybody has ego.

I understand ego.

Understand why people are driven by ego.

I get it.

But for somebody say, well, Branch is an egomaniac because he says he did the first class.

No, that's a fact.

I did the first class.

It's a fact.


I'm not.

I'm not.

I'm not trying to puff myself up, but I am trying to set the record straight.

If somebody is trying to rewrite history, write me out of, you know, doing right, right up my contributions to this industry.

And I'm all for everybody contributing.

I hope everybody helps elevate this industry, bring something to it, make it better than what it was when they started, you know, that would be it'd be great.


So I champion everybody, bring contributions, but don't try to diminish my contributions.

That's I guess that's what I'm saying is, you know that's that's what I've seen from some parties as they try to try to diminish, they try to rewrite, they try to eliminate the things that I've done and I've done great things.


You've done great things.

Buddy did great things.

Fu Tong Chang did great things.

There's a lot of people that have done a lot of great things for this industry and have pushed it forward and those things should be acknowledged and celebrated.

And it's not from a place of ego.

It's just facts.

This is what's happened.

This is, this is, you know, the timeline.


So yeah, somebody else again.

Futung Chang.

Somebody posted a thing about Futung.

You posted it.

Futung's article he wrote in 2000.

I think it was 2002.

Oh yeah, about countertops.

Yeah, yeah.

For fine home building.

And you know, it's amazing how, yeah, it's 2002 because it's 22 years ago.


It's amazing how much things have changed in 22 years.

Like it's incredible if you if you click on that link you can actually read the article.

And so it was really interesting to look back at how things were done and the molds and the whole thing.

Things have dramatically advanced.


But that being said, there's still some really good Nuggets of of insight and wisdom in that article, and I think all of us would be dishonest if we didn't say that Futong Chang's work inspired inspired us.

I think inspired everybody, anybody that's in this industry, You probably 99.99% know who Fu Tong Chang is and you probably think, oh, he did some really cool stuff because he did some really cool stuff.


Well, actually, what I do find, and again, I just didn't say anything, but now we're having a podcast, I'm going to say something.

No, I never bought the.

I never bought any of those books.

You didn't.

None of them.

I thought it was great.

I don't.

Know and and and let me clarify, it's not because I'm like I'm not going to.

I just didn't know they existed.


No idea, zero idea that these things were ever around or or I would have.

I would say the first for me was Bent Mickelson with Concrete Decor and then the the original Concrete Network website is where I got a lot of my early inspirations from myself, yeah.


I remember that was the thing, man.


Yeah, well.

When all of us were tripping over each other wondering how you know who to get our name listed on concrete network.

Yeah, yeah, I do remember that.

Oh, it was great.


Those were good times, though.

They were good times.

Well, every.

Dog has his day in the sun and that was that.

But Futung, you know, I just want to.

I just want to hit that real quick.

Because sure, Futung Chang is a total visionary, but there was a time when, for whatever reason, I think because I partnered with Buddy Rose that that he felt threatened by what I was doing, you know, with with GFRC and Buddy Rose and whatnot, and I ran into Futon.


I think they had an unwritten rivalry.

Yeah, I don't think Buddy ever, But yeah, you know, but there was a, like an unwritten, weird rivalry.

Yeah, you know, he actually written an e-mail to Buddy Rhodes that Buddy Rhodes shared with me.

Futon sent Buddy an e-mail essentially saying, I can't believe you're working a Brandon Gore, you know, blah blah blah.


We built a bridge across the Bay just like.


Yeah, so.

But there was this, there was this thing like he felt he felt threatened.

And I went to World of Concrete one year with Jeremy French and we were World of Concrete.


And Futung was in Sacrete booth and he had his headset on.

He was doing a demo and I saw him and I'm like, I'm like go talk to this guy because I'd I'd seen the e-mail, Buddy had shared it with me and so I stood in the booth and just stared at him like an axe murderer just stood right in the very front and he saw me right and I just stared at him and the second he was done he made a beeline.


There was like this like a little room They set up the the cubicle walls, so there's like a little dressing room or a little break room, whatever, in the middle of Sacre booth and he made a beeline for it and I cut him off.

I'm like Futung Chang and stopped him.

He's like, hi.

And I'm like, my name is Brandon Gore.


Maybe you know me.

He's like Brandon Gore.

No, no.

I don't recognize the name.

And I'm like, well, maybe you do, maybe you don't.

I just want to say, I had.

I had a business card.

If you have anything you ever want to say about me, please just give me a call.

My cell phone's on this card.


Just give me a call directly and we can talk about it.

He's like, OK, I'm like, OK, And that was that.

It all stopped at that point.

Never heard another negative anything.

So anyways and that being said I but but hold on.

But I do want to say even that being said even though that I know that there was a lot of this under you know under wraps negativity going on, I still hold Futon in great regard.


I think he was an amazing artisan amazing.

I think he did phenomenal things.

And I think that he and Buddy both in those early years were catalyst for where we are today that this, this industry, they were the Genesis.

You know, it's it's like fabric forming.


When I say I did fabric forming, I taught the first class.

And we're like the Romans.

No, they didn't.

They, they're they're not doing what we do.

They don't, you know, resins didn't exist back then, so just shut up, right.

So for like Buddy and Futon, you know, people would be like, but the Romans are making concrete countertops.


Yeah, they were, but they weren't making them.

Like these guys were making them and they didn't make them, you know, with the materials that we have today.

So just shut up.

So Buddy and Futon single handedly in the the 80s.

You know, I think Buddy started in the late 70s, seventy 9, but in the 80s and 90s really put concrete countertops in the lexicon of design in the United States because nobody else was doing it besides those two guys in those early days.


And they they brought this whole thing to the market.

And because of them it is where it is, you know today in the sense of had had Buddy and Chang gone into different fields and never did what they did, would you and I be developing these insane products?

Probably not, you know, because these things wouldn't have come to market.


And so I do hold them both in high regard and I both think that they did great things to help elevate this industry.

So anyways, what are you going to?

Say, well, no, I agree with you because again, I'm just getting having that argument with it.

I there was a time we don't get there as often as we'd like to, which seems ridiculous.


Again, I'm going to bring up Yosemite.


All of what, an hour from me.

The Owanee Hotel.

You know they're which is built in whatever it was 1920 or or whatever in a lot of those rooms.

The vanities are made out of concrete, concrete from that particular era.


So I mean these kind of things were done, but I don't think it really became as you know, let's say trying to be mainstream without those individuals.

And and it's just it's kind of crazy how whatever Futung, I mean is he even still alive anymore?


I have no idea.

But whatever he's doing today, because I'm sure if he is, he's still doing design kind of stuff or architecture or something like that.

So whatever transpired during that period of time with chain countertops and I think the chain exchange and all that kind of stuff, you know, it's just egos, man.


You know he he was putting the fossils and all that kind of stuff and and remember casting on what was it the glass.

Or high gloss laminate, yeah.


And then, you know, we found it wasn't durable anyway.


I mean, that's a lot of stuff.

All of us did that.

We look back now and you can just kind of shake your head like, Oh, well, yeah, now we know why we don't do that.

But had not these people been around to do that kind of stuff and really, you know, let's say, you know, lit the rocket ship to to take off, then yeah, come on, none of us would be doing this stuff in my opinion.


I don't think any of us would be doing this stuff.

You wouldn't see concrete vanity and vessel sinks and countertops and you know all this kind of stuff.

Concrete would still be dedicated to per where we started this to you know to walls on houses.


You know what I mean?

Yeah, and maybe faux panels and this kind of stuff.

Not to also much of the interior kind of things that that has really elevated the game but at the same time you know playing the as the game keeps getting elevated the same ego starts because every time you step up to make things better and more durable and it it takes a minute for everybody else to follow along and and when that happens just like with futon man there's I'm sure during his time there's this and why the little rivalry you know this little path of destruction if you will like I'm better than you are and I'm doing something different and I don't know it's it's just funny man it's funny.


I'm listening to Tony Robbins right now.

Tony Robbins is a great motivational speaker, but he was essentially saying, like, he doesn't need to knock down somebody's building to build his taller, to make his taller.

And that's not the way it works, right?

And you, you'd like to say like, blowing out somebody else's candle doesn't make yours grow brighter.


But I think that there's this weird human nature to want to succeed, and if anybody else succeeds, then they took away from your potential success.

That's the way people view it, and that's not the way it is at all.

Yeah, We've talked about that before.



Yeah, well, somebody was messaging me.

I don't know who it was and I'm trying to think who has messaged me and we're having this conversation back and forth.

And I brought up that in Tucson there was all these manufacturers of Adobe blocks, Adobe bricks, these family owned companies been around for, you know, 100 plus years.


And this person went to the Tucson building department and got them to make the code to his size block because every family had molds.

They'd built, you know, hundreds, thousands of molds.

And he got them to write the code to be his size.

And only his size was acceptable in the Tucson building code for Adobe block.


And by doing so, he essentially eliminated everybody as competition because they could not afford to retool their entire operation to that size, right.

And I think like that is such a chicken shit way to do business.

Competition is healthy.


Competition drives people to to innovate, to make better products.

And I'm of the opinion let the chips fall where they may.

Let every company do their best and let the best company win out.

You know, whatever that means.

But to do it through backstabbing or getting code rewritten or, you know, these types of things, dude, just that.


That's no way to get ahead.

You don't get ahead by by pushing somebody else down.

You get ahead by doing your best and succeeding right.

Yeah, yeah, what?

What are you laughing about?

You're opening a can of worms, man.

I, you know, I could see that.


I would say the same thing.

Don't message other people's customers.

Don't you know, don't I mean, So again, I'll, I'll just stop right here because that's good.

Keep going and keep going.

No, I mean we hear about these things.

It's one of the things that I've never and you've never.


We don't sneak around, we don't whisper in peoples ears.

Hey you should be using Kodak.

Bro, I just don't believe in it.


Hear you're using blah, blah, blah.

You don't want to use those guys stuff.

Use our stuff.

We don't do any of that.

We do everything in the light of day.

We operate on the up and up from a place of integrity and ethics.


We cure ourselves and we treat people the way we want to be treated.

But we hear from everybody about the calls they get, the text they get, the messages they get from other material vendors, you know, trying to like slip in their DMS, Hey, how's it going?

You know, I guess whatever.

I'm still the opinion that the best company will win.


You know, Kodiak Pro.

Not the end of the day, well.

But I'm saying we're, we're working hard to innovate the best products for this industry, for actual artisans and Craftsman that use these day in, day out in a working shop.

That's who we make our products for.

That's what we do for a living.


That's that's our target audience and we're doing everything we can.

I think we're just getting started.

You know, there's going to be a time when we're going to be the biggest company in the world for this, this market and there's going to be a time 100 years now nobody will even remember Kodiak Pro, right.

We're going to have our day in the sun and we're just now starting to head in that direction.


We're not there yet.

We're going to get there.

I'm confident of it.

But everything rises, everything falls and that's the nature of business and for the the the businesses of previous years that were once at the the pinnacle and now aren't, That's just a cycle of life, you know, it is what it is.

There's always going to be a young a young lion challenger that comes in for the old lion at some point and it just is the nature.


Of working with chemistries that I truly believe are going to continue to evolve.

I mean so as long as that, as long as these chemistries, everything from people with pH, DS to, you know, trying to find ways to help businesses A, you know, deal with the Co, twos, B production and I mean you know, cement chemistry cement's not going anywhere, but cement chemistries are continuing to evolve and with that some people are going to evolve other chemistries along the way too like which brings us back to part of our, you know, ceiling versus coding.


You know ceiling technologies have a lot of room for innovation, Coding technologies, I shouldn't say not too much because I know some of the guys in who do the coatings like John, I can't believe you said that.

Well that's not really what I meant.

I just meant you know those coding based technologies, there's is not a whole lot of room for innovation as much as you know sealing technologies that are about again enhancing or being part of the chemistry or cement based chemistry.


So anyway, it it this world will continue to run long after you and me are dust, my friend.

Yeah, that's just the way it.

Is and hopefully we make it better.

Hopefully we contribute to it.

Hopefully the advancements we make, you know, are stepping stones to the future.


You know, that's all we can do any of us.

We can only hope to make it a better place.

What's that old saying?

Takes it over.

Yeah, dude, the the the man that plants a tree knowing he won't sit in the shade has truly figured out the meaning of life.

Hopefully that we do that to some extent with what we're doing with innovation is we make it better and better and better and just advance this whole thing forward.


We'll see where it goes.

One last question that I wrote here, and I don't even know what the question was.

I just wrote What do polymers do?

You said somebody posted posted a question about what do polymers do.

I mean, do we want to get into this?

Let's let's let's set like a 5 minute.

Time to get it.


I'm just telling you that because someone is.

I just found it so humorous that I can't remember how long ago, maybe a week ago or weeks ago.

A month ago again.

This huge eruption about polymers and concrete.

Again, you know this and maybe it's not a sore subject anymore, but you know, clearly there was a, you know, a lot of and on a particular forum which one of the ones you left by the way.


It got really ugly, man.

I mean it got really ugly.

It was like, you know being in a mosh pit between polymers and no polymers.

And so it was just I found it so humorous that someone posted a question saying Can you tell me exactly what polymers doing concrete and.


And nobody answered it.


Nobody wants to touch the Ah, come on man, that's just dude.

So yeah, I I didn't see the question, but polymers had their place.

Polymers, there was a time when polymers were cutting edge and they offered benefit to the mix.


At that point in time they were useful, but that.

Again, we're we're specifically talking about artisan based mixes exactly.

You know, there there certainly are situations where you know, adding some kind of, let's again, this is called glue putting glue.


And, you know, there's certainly benefits.

How are you saying glue?

You're saying it so weird.

Glue, glue, glue, glue.

You really have to, like, accentuate the loo with the good Jesus.

I can see it with your hands in the air live.


So there are definitely, you know, without going down this again, I won't, but you know, there are, there can be advantages and every one of those advantages comes with just as much baggage of disadvantage.

And that's just the way it is.


And you know, so everybody do your homework, take a look, there's, gosh, there's hundreds if not thousands of polymer based technologies, you know, acrylic vinyls, you know, I mean I could go on and on and on.

So that's all.


The The funny part to me is when reading that, tell me exactly what.

Well, come on man, what polymer, you know, what kind of mix.

I mean, there's so many that, but I just thought it was funny.


But at the end of the day, at the end of the day for anybody that wants to know the truth of the matter, with Kodiak Pro, we could use polymers in our products.


John has relationships with all the manufacturers of the polymers.

He's on the inside, you know, loop of people that knows what's coming out, what hasn't even hit the market yet, new innovations, new technologies, all this kind of stuff.

If polymers had any benefit whatsoever, they would be in our mix.


I assure you for what we do now we have to caveat for what we do.

We're making sinks, countertops, furniture, tile, planters for that market.

There is not a benefit, there's only detriment.

A detriment is it entrains air.

People like, well, use a powdered polymer.


Well still entrains air, brother.

It entrains air.

It creates long term sealer durability issues.

It reduces the color richness of the concrete, which was something that was a surprise when when you guys tested that.

Yeah, every testing we showed again, all the way back to blue concrete days.


Yeah, every testing we showed was even though you read everywhere we'd like enhances color and we thought the same thing, I still remember Sean's philosophy was that's why you do it in paint, right, Paint other than obviously the the acrylic being a bonder, holding the paint, you know, to the on your walls.


But certainly it has to enhance the color.

And no, we showed everything.

Otherwise it was extremely surprising to all of us.

But it's it's one of the things that there was a time when that was innovation.

There was a time when that was cutting edge and that time came and went, You know, that dog had its day and that dog has passed away.


That dog's in the pet cemetery now and there's a new generation of products that have taken up the baton and innovative and gone far beyond what that was at that time.

But there's still some material vendors that are pointing back to the past and saying this is the way they did it back then, OK, well, 50 years ago that is the way they did it and 50 years ago, a.


Lot of the Romans do it, Yeah.

How'd that work out?

Yeah, but I mean 50 years ago, there's a lot of things that.

Do you remember cell phones 50 years ago?

No, because they weren't around 50 years ago.

You know all the great innovations we've had that are make our daily life what a massive.



There was lead in paint.

Exactly, Yeah.

Well, back then there was lead in fuel.

You know, they had leaded and unleaded.


Yeah, it's the best installation there is.


Yeah, all kinds of fun stuff from back then.

Aluminum wiring was big 50 years ago, you know, in your house, all kinds of stuff.


So it's one of those things that, yeah, things were done differently 50 years ago.

There's been innovations, there's been progress.

And so, if there was any benefit, believe me, Polymer did not sleep with my wife.

Despite what the rumors are.

Polymer did not kick my dog.


Polymer did not piss in my Cheerios.

Polymer did none of those things.

I have no vendetta against Polymer.


I'd have a beer with Polymer if I was at the beach and I saw a Polymer.

Hey, Polymer, come come have a beer.

I'm so open minded.

I'm interrupting you.


That's OK.

I'm just saying.

I'm just saying John, I'm just saying John, I'm just saying John, I would be friends with Polymer.


I have nothing against Polymer, but Polymer doesn't have any benefit for our mix.

So we're we're gonna keep Polymer out of the mix, but if there's any benefit, we'd bring Polymer in.

Well, I'm just saying, you know, I mean fortunately these are, these are materials that we have 100% control over period, raw material blending everything.


So if there does happen to be some incredible innovation that that we did see benefit without the downside, look, man, we're not opposed to it.

Yeah, I'm not opposed to anything.

Oh, before you know it, I'm going to be coating everything.


Coat, coat.

We're, we're not opposed to Polymer in the sense of we have certain customers, Dusty Baker being one of them, that likes the look that Polymer creates in their concrete.

They get a certain, yeah, they get an aesthetic from the Polymer and there's nothing wrong with that.


There's benefits for some users that like what it does great.

We're working on getting Polymer stocked and we'll sell directly to anybody that wants it for for their use.

That's fine.

Like again, I have nothing against it, but for what we do, you know, casting a lot of SEC type stuff or spraying or whatever, it doesn't offer any benefit for us.


Or my cast hand tooling.

I mean, polymers make everything so sticky and gel like that, although I learned how to work around it.

I mean, they're just very difficult to hand tool surfaces with polymer on board and that's just the way it is, yeah.


So that's the truth of the matter.

So the person that asked that question there is your answer.

Take it, leave it.

You know when information is free, it has no value.

But that's our honest opinion on Polymer.

Somebody that used Polymer for a lot of years, for over a decade and and now I don't use Polymer.


It's night and day difference and besides an aesthetic like Dusty gets with the look that he likes there, I don't see any benefit to using it.

That's just my own opinion.

Maybe in a slurry?

I mean, I could see situations.

But no, I I stopped.

Using it, I would just put some bonder.


Yeah, but I stopped using it in my slurry even when I used polymer back in day because it would stain the surface if I spot everything.

Yeah yeah.

So I didn't put polymer even when I used polymer in my mix.

If I had to do slurry, I left the polymer out because if I just did a little bit of slurry in that one spot and I Paul shit and I sealed it, there'd be a big spot where the polymer stained the surface.


I stopped using it in my slurry.

So now, But anyways, I digress.

Let's let's wrap this up.

I want to hit really quick the workshops because we've had a lot of registrations in the last week for the Hero's Quest and for the fabric forming class.

But the Hero's Quest we're we're getting closer and closer to being sold out.


So I think we've had five or maybe six people registered in the last week for the Hero's Quest.

So Concrete Ears Quest, May 1st through 3rd Napa, CA.

This class is going to be an advanced mold making class.

That's what it's focused on.

And Ram Crete, you can go to to read or register for that.


We have a fabric forming, concrete sink and GFRC workshop here in Wichita, KS June 21st to 23rd.

That's on fabric forming and GFRC.

I've been teaching that class forever.

It's a fun class again, we've had a lot of registrations for that.

So it's going to be a really good one.


Furniture design workshop, August 16th or 18th here in Kansas, that's where we're going to design a piece of furniture.

We go through all the process of that.

You're going to make a a small piece and take a home with you.

So take a look at that.

And the last one is our Basics Fundamental workshop, September 20th and 29th here in Wichita, KS.


That's that's our class for people that are interested in exploring concrete.

Maybe you're thinking about doing this as a business, you're not sure.

You know you want the the right first step to get you started in the right direction.

That's that class.

So that's where we cover the basics.

So all four of these workshops, you can read more about them and you can register on


And just so you know, we do have a materials credit for Kodiak Pro on all these workshops and that helps offset the cost.

So these are incredibly affordable and of a tremendous value and I hope you explore it.

So anything else, John?

No, man, I'm good.


I got to wrap it up here.

I got some work to do so until next week.


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